"It has become the prevalent view among sociologists, historians, and some theistic scientists that religion and science have never been in serious conflict. Some even claim that Christianity was responsible for the development of science. In God and the Folly of Faith, physicist Victor J. Stenger shows that this conclusion flies in the face of the historical facts.
In a sweeping historical survey that begins with ancient Greek science and proceeds through the Renaissance and Enlightenment to contemporary advances in physics and cosmology, Stenger makes a convincing case that Christianity held back the progress of science for one thousand years. It is significant, he notes, that the scientific revolution of the seventeenth century occurred only after the revolts against established ecclesiastic authorities in the Renaissance and Reformation opened up new avenues of thought.
The author goes on to detail how religion and science are fundamentally incompatible in several areas: the origin of the universe and its physical parameters, the origin of complexity, holism versus reductionism, the nature of mind and consciousness, and the source of morality.
In the end, Stenger is most troubled by the negative influence that organized religion often exerts on politics and society. He points out antiscientific attitudes embedded in popular religion that are being used to suppress scientific results on issues of global importance, such as overpopulation and environmental degradation. When religion fosters disrespect for science, it threatens the generations of humanity that will follow ours.
This thorough and hard-hitting critique is must reading for anyone interested in the interaction between religion and science."
Re: Stenger's "convincing case" for The Dark Ages « Reply #1 on Feb 13, 2012, 1:02pm »
So he turns the clock of the history of science back to the late 1800s in the face of current scholarship? I guess he must have some pretty strong arguments and a lot of new evidence, then.
There have been several books lately promoting the idea the religion and science are compatible – or at least challenging any suggestion that they might be incompatible. Of course, these were written by advocates of religion, or at least advocates of “belief in belief.”
While many of these books were critiqued in reviews there has been very little challenge presented in book length. So I was very pleased to see news that Victor Stenger has a new book, released in Apri,l called God and the Folly of Faith: The Incompatibility of Science and Religion.
I have had the privilege of reading through Victor J. Stenger's soon to be released book, God and the Folly of Faith,and it's a tour de force. Among the published atheists trying to bridge the gap between scientifically minded people and people of faith, I think Stenger is the best.
The reader is treated to the history of the conflict between science and religion where Stenger argues there is a fundamental conflict between the two. "Science" he writes, "has earned our trust by its proven success. Religion has destroyed our trust by its repeated failures. Using the empirical method, science has eliminated smallpox, flown men to the moon, and discovered DNA. If science did not work, we wouldn't do it. Relying on faith, religion has brought us inquisitions, holy wars, and intolerance. Religion does not work, but we still do it." (p. 15)
As for it contents I expect the book to include: - Hypatia was murdered for her "science" - Early Christians hated/were uninterested in "science" - Christians burned the library of Alexandria (maybe he also blames Muslims for burning the library down a second time for good measure) - The medieval Church banned the number zero - Roger Bacon was imprisoned for his "science" - The condemnations of 1277 were typifical of the Roman Catholic Church's attitude to "science" - Nicolaus Copernicus's "science" was groundbreaking but was immediately seized on by the Church - Giordano Bruno was martyred for his "science" - Galileo was tortured and imprisoned for writing about Copernicanism which he somehow proved true - Huxley completely thumped bishop Wilberforce (who will be called "Soapy Sam") and so he secured the stately ascent of SCIENCE - The threat posed to science nowadays by fundamentalists, religiously motivated terrorists and - worst of all - historians of science who try and even manage to publish their apologetic works in leading peer-reviewed journals.
On the other hand it will exclude: - Comments by church fathers on pagan learning except if they can be construed as hostile - Nestorian philosophers and mathematicians - Medieval Latin natural philosophers and mathematicians other than Roger Bacon - The importance of Church suppport for natural philosophy in the middle ages - Jesuit mathematicians - The funding of the experiments at Saint Thomas's Abbey by the Roman Catholic Church
Scholarly footnotes will include the usual suspects, Sagan, Russell and some gibbons.
Joined: May 2011 Gender: Male Posts: 493 Karma: 15
Re: Stenger's "convincing case" for The Dark Ages « Reply #3 on Feb 13, 2012, 2:45pm »
Quote:
Religion does not work, but we still do it." (p. 15)
Stenger clearly doesn't know what religion actually does that works. Strong religious belief provides a range of physical, emotional, social, financial, psychological, and health benefits;[1] [2] reducing health risks, increasing the likelihood of longevity[3] and mental health,[4] and having a positive effect on wellbeing in childhood,[5] [6] [7] as well as later economic outcomes.[8]
High religious involvement has a positive effect on social integration,[9] [10] [11] behavioural regulation,[12] and a range of positive societal outcomes.[13] However, lower levels of religious belief, involvement, and commitment, produce negative outcomes which can be worse than having no belief at all.[14] [15]
______________________________________ [1] ‘Many studies have documented the benefits of religious involvement. Indeed, highly religious people tend to be healthier, live longer, and have higher levels of subjective well-being.’, Mochon, Norton, & Ariely, ‘Who Benefits from Religion?’, Social Indicators Research (101.1), 2010.
[2] It is recognized that not all religious systems provide such benefits; some produce negative outcomes due to prejudice against education, or to oppressive power structures and failure to reinforce positive behaviours.
[3] ‘Similarly, although there are exceptions and the matter remains controversial (Sloan et al. 1999), a growing body of research documents an association between religious involvement and better outcomes on a variety of physical health measures, including problems related to heart disease, stroke, hypertension, cancer, gastrointestinal disease, as well as overall health status and life expectancy. This research also points to differences by religious affiliation, with members of stricter denominations displaying an advantage (Levin 1994). Many of the early studies in this literature suffer from methodological shortcomings, including small, unrepresentative samples, lack of adequate statistical controls, and a cross-sectional design that confounds the direction of causality. Yet the conclusion of a generally positive effect of religious involvement on physical health and longevity also emerges from a new generation of studies that have addressed many of these methodological problems (Ellison and Levin 1998). In one of the most rigorous analyses to date, Hummer et al. (1999) use longitudinal data from a nationwide survey, the 1987 Cancer Risk Factor Supplement–Epidemiology Study, linked to the Multiple Cause of Death file. Their results show that the gap in life expectancy at age 20 between those who attend religious services more than once a week and those who never attend is more than seven years—comparable to the male–female and white–black differentials in the United States. Additional multivariate analyses of these data reveal a strong association between religious participation and the risk of death, holding constant socioeconomic and demographic variables, as well as initial health status. Other recent longitudinal studies also report a protective effect of religious involvement against disability among the elderly (Idler and Kasl 1992), as well as a positive influence on self-rated health (Musick 1996) and longevity (Strawbridge et al. 1997).’, Waite & Lehrer, ‘The Benefits from Marriage and Religion in the United States: A Comparative Analysis’, p. 2 (author manuscript 2003).
[4] ‘The connection between religion and mental health has been the subject of much controversy over the years, and many psychologists and psychiatrists remain skeptical, in part because most of the research has been based on cross-sectional analyses of small samples. The studies to date are suggestive of an association between religious involvement and better mental health outcomes, including greater self-esteem, better adaptation to bereavement, a lower incidence of depression and anxiety, a lower likelihood of alcohol and drug abuse, and greater life satisfaction and happiness in general (Koenig et al. 2001). Recent longitudinal analyses of subgroups of the population provide additional evidence in support of this relationship (Zuckerman et al. 1984; Levin et al. 1996).’, ibid., p. 3.
[5] 'Religious participation has also been associated with better educational outcomes. Freeman (1986) finds a positive effect of churchgoing on school attendance in a sample of inner-city black youth. Regnerus (2000) reports that participation in religious activities is related to better test scores and heightened educational expectations among tenth-grade public school students. In the most comprehensive study to date, using data on adolescents from the National Education Longitudinal Study of 1988, Muller and Ellison (2001) find positive effects of various measures of religious involvement on the students’ locus of control (a measure of self-concept), educational expectations, time spent on homework, advanced mathematics credits earned, and the probability of obtaining a high school diploma.’, ibid., p. 4.
[6] ‘Several studies have documented an association between religion and children’s well-being. Recent research on differences in parenting styles by religious affiliation reveals that conservative Protestants display distinctive patterns: they place a greater emphasis on obedience and tend to view corporal punishment as an acceptable form of child discipline; at the same time, they are more likely to avoid yelling at children and are more prone to frequent praising and warm displays of affection (Bartowski et al. 2000). As to other dimensions of religion, Pearce and Axinn (1998) find that family religious involvement promotes stronger ties among family members and has a positive impact on mothers’ and children’s reports of the quality of their relationship. A number of studies document the effects of children’s own religious participation, showing that young people who grow up having some religious involvement tend to display better outcomes in a range of areas. Such involvement has been linked to a lower probability of substance abuse and juvenile delinquency (Donahue and Benson 1995), a lower incidence of depression among some groups (Harker 2001), delayed sexual debut (Bearman and Bruckner 2001), more positive attitudes toward marriage and having children, and more negative attitudes toward unmarried sex and premarital childbearing (Marchena and Waite 2001).’, ibid., p. 4.
[7] ‘Overall, we find strong evidence that youth with religiously active parents are less affected later in life by childhood disadvantage than youth whose parents did not frequently attend religious services. These buffering effects of religious organizations are most pronounced when outcomes are measured by high school graduation or non-smoking and when disadvantage is measured by family resources or maternal education, but we also find buffering effects for a number of other outcome-disadvantage pairs. We generally find much weaker buffering effects for other social organizations.’, Dehejia et al., ‘The Role of Religious and Social Organizations in the Lives of Disadvantaged Youth’, NBER Working Paper No. 13369 (2007).
[8] ‘However, as we discuss below, an emerging literature shows a positive effect of religiosity on educational attainment, a key determinant of success in the labor market. These studies suggest a potentially important link between religious involvement during childhood and adolescence and subsequent economic well-being as an adult. Preliminary results from a new line of inquiry at the macro level are consistent with this hypothesis. Using a cross-country panel that includes information on religious and economic variables, Barro and McLeary (2002) find that enhanced religious beliefs affect economic growth positively, although growth responds negatively to increased church attendance. The authors interpret their findings as reflecting a positive association between “productivity” in the religion sector and macroeconomic performance.’, Waite & Lehrer, ‘The Benefits from Marriage and Religion in the United States: A Comparative Analysis’, p. 3 (author manuscript 2003).
[9] ‘Ellison and George (1994) find that people who frequently attend religious services not only have larger social networks, but also hold more positive perceptions of the quality of their social relationships.’, ibid., p. 7.
[10] ‘Recent research has emphasized that religion can play a pivotal role in the socialization of youth by contributing to the development of social capital. Religious congregations often sponsor family activities, stimulating the cultivation of closer parent–child relations; they also bring children together with grandparents and other supportive adults (parents of peers, Sunday-school teachers) in an environment of trust. This broad base of social ties can be a rich source of positive role models, confidants, useful information, and reinforcement of values that promote educational achievement.’, ibid., p. 7.
[11] ‘At the other end of the age spectrum, the social ties provided by religious institutions are of special value to the elderly, helping them deal with the many difficult challenges that tend to accompany old age: illness, dependency, loss, and loneliness (Levin 1994).’, ibid., p. 7.
[12] ‘Most faiths have teachings that encourage healthy behaviors and discourage conduct that is self-destructive; they also provide moral guidance about sexuality. Some religions have specific regulations limiting or prohibiting the consumption of alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, and potentially harmful foods. Several studies show that religious involvement is generally associated with health-promoting behaviors (Koenig et al. 2001) and that such behaviors explain in part the connection between religion and longevity (Strawbridge et al. 1997; Hummer et al. 1999).’, ibid., p. 7.
[13] ‘At the societal level, higher religious involvement is related to increased levels of education (Gruber 2005), lower crime rates (Baier and Wright 2001; Johnson et al. 2000), increases in civic involvement (Putnam 2000; Ruiter and De Graaf 2006), higher levels of cooperation (Norenzayan and Shariff 2008; Shariff and Norenzayan 2007), lower divorce rates, higher marital satisfaction and better child adjustment (Mahoney et al. 2001; for a review, see Sherkat and Ellison 1999).’, Mochon, Norton, & Ariely, ‘Who Benefits from Religion?’, Social Indicators Research (101.2), 2010.
[14] ‘While fervent believers benefit from their involvement, those with weaker beliefs are actually less happy than those who do not ascribe to any religion—atheists and agnostics..’, ibid., p. 1.
[15] ‘Indeed, weakly affiliated adherents may actually be less happy than their unaffiliated counterparts—atheists, agnostics, and those who report no religion at all—and therefore would appear to benefit from abandoning their faith.’, ibid., p. 2.
Joined: Jun 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 183 Location: Glasgow Karma: 6
Re: Stenger's "convincing case" for The Dark Ages « Reply #4 on Feb 13, 2012, 2:56pm »
Corrected somewhat - I noticed a few errors creeping in. Feel free to update my poor and ignorant attempts...
Quote:
It has become the prevalent view among sociologists, historians, and some theistic scientists that religion and science have never been in serious conflict. Some even claim that Christianity was responsible for the development of science. In God and the Folly of Faith, physicist Victor J. Stenger shows that this conclusion flies in the face of the historical factshis own personal prejudices.
In a sweeping historical surveyrehash of previous works that begins with ancient Greek science and proceeds through the Renaissance and Enlightenment to contemporary advances in physics and cosmology, Stenger makes a convincing case that Christianity held back the progress of science for one thousand yearshe wouldn't know good history if it came up and punched him on the nose. It is significant, he notes, that the scientific revolution of the seventeenth century occurred only after the revolts against established ecclesiastic authorities in the Renaissance and Reformation opened up new avenues of thoughtthe worldview of Aristotle had been disproved and discarded.
The author goes on to detail how religion and sciencehis view of the universe are fundamentally incompatible in several areas: the origin of the universe and its physical parameters, the origin of complexity, holism versus reductionism, the nature of mind and consciousness, and the source of morality.
In the end, Stenger is most troubled by the negative influence that organized religion often exerts on politics and society. He points out antiscientific attitudes embedded in popular religion that are being used to suppress scientific results on issues of global importance, such as overpopulation and environmental degradation. When religion fosters disrespect for science, it threatens the generations of humanity that will follow ours.fact that no-one appears to be listening to him.
This thorough and hard-hitting critiquepopulist rant is must reading for anyone interested in the interaction between religion and sciencethe extent to which people will misrepresent history
Joined: Jun 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 298 Location: Glasgow, Scotland Karma: 5
Re: Stenger's "convincing case" for The Dark Ages « Reply #8 on Feb 14, 2012, 2:43pm »
What a silly book. If only we knew someone who was an actual historian of science, who had enough expertise and connections in the relevant schoalrly community, who could correct these foolish errors.... if only...
Joined: Jun 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 941 Location: The Dominion of New England Karma: 11
Re: Stenger's "convincing case" for The Dark Ages « Reply #9 on Feb 14, 2012, 5:48pm »
Here's a bit of 'conflict thesis-ing' from Kenan Malik in response some of the more shrill conservatives like Mark Steyn. You can see how Jonathan Israel's work on the enlightenment buttresses a sort of Whig Interpretation of Secular History.
Here's a bit of 'conflict thesis-ing' from Kenan Malik in response some of the more shrill conservatives like Mark Steyn. You can see how Jonathan Israel's work on the enlightenment buttresses a sort of Whig Interpretation of Secular History.
Joined: May 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 602 Karma: 14
Re: Stenger's "convincing case" for The Dark Ages « Reply #12 on Feb 16, 2012, 12:31pm »
Stenger's book looks like a joy. I'm occasionally accused of attacking strawmen when I try to debunk the conflict thesis. But Stenger looks like he is gallopping to my rescue with priceless comments like "Hopefully in perhaps another generation America will have joined Europe and the rest of the developed world in shucking off the rusty chains of ancient superstition that stand in as an impediment to science and progress." (quoted by Loftus).
Re: Stenger's "convincing case" for The Dark Ages « Reply #13 on Feb 24, 2012, 10:26pm »
Whenever I want to learn about history, I read books by physicists. Just as whenever I want to know about physics, I read books written by literary critics.
Stenger "Hopefully in perhaps another generation America will have joined Europe and the rest of the developed world in shucking off the rusty chains of ancient superstition that stand in as an impediment to science and progress."
But if America has not yet done so, then in the past she must have been hobbled in her science and progress. So, no discoveries or Nobel prizes for the Americans until they do?
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