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Post by gnosticbishop on Aug 5, 2014 17:12:01 GMT
How can modern men believe in a creator God?
Believing in any good supernatural creator entity should be quite the leap in logic, yet so many Christians admit to believing in such a good and powerful creator type God, --- even though they also often think the world has more evil than good in it.
Ancient man can be said to have lived in a world where there was as much magic as reality and Gods for every occasion. Most religions had to invent a nemesis for God, be it a Satan or a demiurge to take the blame for evil. Christianity followed the pattern for myths that was well known and established and invented Satan. That strange magical/superstitious world would explain why ancient man was foolish enough to believe in fantasy characters and creator Gods.
How would you explain that less enlightened view persisting in today’s supposedly well-educated and intelligent believer?
Regards
DL
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jonkon
Master of the Arts
Posts: 111
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Post by jonkon on Aug 5, 2014 19:26:48 GMT
It is a readily observed fact that dogs, cats and other animals do not engage in theological discussions. They merely go about their daily business of eating, sleeping, and raising babies. If man was not created in God's image with the free will to engage in fellowship with God, how do you explain the existence of this post? If God does not exist why is it even an issue with you? Man can only disbelieve in God by ignoring the evidence presented by basic human experience.
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Post by peteri on Aug 6, 2014 0:16:01 GMT
Most religions had to invent a nemesis for God, be it a Satan or a demiurge to take the blame for evil. Christianity followed the pattern for myths that was well known and established and invented Satan. Satan is NOT God's evil twin in the New Testament or in any flavour of orthodox theology. The primary role of Satan in the NT understanding is as tester. If Satan is the "evil one" I think it is because Jesus regarded causing someone to stumble on their walk with God as the worst thing anyone could do. If Satan is the "god of this world," I think it is at least partly because this world is a place of testing. - Satan tests Jesus in the wilderness. - the Lord's prayer has the line - lead us not into testing, but deliver us from the evil one. - Jesus rebukes Peter as Satan when Peter rejects the idea of the upcoming trial and crucifixion by telling Jesus that it shouldn't happen. - In the apocalypse, John identifies the serpent in the Garden as Satan, something natural if Satan is the one who tests. Peter. |
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Post by gnosticbishop on Aug 6, 2014 16:42:04 GMT
Peteri
Then why does scriptures have God sentencing his faithful employee to hell in the Christian myth?
Regards
DL
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Post by gnosticbishop on Aug 6, 2014 16:49:50 GMT
No and lest we forget, elephants cry. I wrote it to fellowship with men, not Gods. God does not communicate with us unless we go inside and find him. Few seek gnosis out of fear. What many call God is not God. God as a better way always exists and that is what God is. The bible says that God creates only perfection. Does you human experience see perfection or evolving perfection all around you?I do but few others see it. It is from nature and not some genocidal son murdering God.RegardsDL |
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Post by gnosticbishop on Aug 6, 2014 16:51:31 GMT
jonkon
The quote thing screwed up. Let me know if it makes sense to you.
Regards
DL
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Post by peteri on Aug 6, 2014 21:18:48 GMT
Peteri Then why does scriptures have God sentencing his faithful employee to hell in the Christian myth? Regards DL Who do you mean by "faithful employee"? If you mean Christ then it doesn't have anything of the sort. Pilate sentenced Christ to death on the cross. Perhaps you have got confused by the words of the Apostles' creed - "he descended into hell", but that just means the Jesus was well and truly dead. There were people who taught that Christ only seemed to suffer and only seemed to die. Perhaps you are making a reference to some sort of caricature of penal substitution theory. AFAIK none of the minority of Christians who subscribe to penal substitution theory believe anything like what you suggest. Or is it possible that you mean Satan rather than Christ by "faithful employee"? If Satan is meant to be a self conscious agent (and I am presently somewhat inclined towards the view that this is not actually intended) then he is hardly a faithful employee. If Satan is not a self-conscious entity but a poetic way of speaking, then the final destruction of Satan at the last judgement is also a poetic way of speaking. Peter. |
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jonkon
Master of the Arts
Posts: 111
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Post by jonkon on Aug 7, 2014 1:28:29 GMT
If God does not exist, what makes you think there is evil in the world? "Good vs. Evil" is a moral judgement making sense only in the context of God allowing evil, so that men might have the free will to exercise virtue. Our personal umbrage to acts against us is God communicating our own need to reflect on the morality of our own actions, thus the widely quoted charge: "judge not lest ye be judged." Otherwise what is is.
My original point, which you completely miss, is that while a man may THINK that he is an existentialist, only dogs, cats, and other animals really ARE. Thus the very existence of this thread undermines your position that God does not exist.
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Post by gnosticbishop on Aug 7, 2014 15:35:08 GMT
Peteri Then why does scriptures have God sentencing his faithful employee to hell in the Christian myth? Regards DL Who do you mean by "faithful employee"? If you mean Christ then it doesn't have anything of the sort. Pilate sentenced Christ to death on the cross. Perhaps you have got confused by the words of the Apostles' creed - "he descended into hell", but that just means the Jesus was well and truly dead. There were people who taught that Christ only seemed to suffer and only seemed to die. Perhaps you are making a reference to some sort of caricature of penal substitution theory. AFAIK none of the minority of Christians who subscribe to penal substitution theory believe anything like what you suggest. Or is it possible that you mean Satan rather than Christ by "faithful employee"? If Satan is meant to be a self conscious agent (and I am presently somewhat inclined towards the view that this is not actually intended) then he is hardly a faithful employee. If Satan is not a self-conscious entity but a poetic way of speaking, then the final destruction of Satan at the last judgement is also a poetic way of speaking. Peter.
"The primary role of Satan in the NT understanding is as tester."
This implies that he is working for God and you have God sending an employee doing his work to hell. That is hardly the way to treat loyal employees.
Regards DL
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Post by gnosticbishop on Aug 7, 2014 15:42:45 GMT
If God does not exist, what makes you think there is evil in the world? "Good vs. Evil" is a moral judgement making sense only in the context of God allowing evil, so that men might have the free will to exercise virtue. Our personal umbrage to acts against us is God communicating our own need to reflect on the morality of our own actions, thus the widely quoted charge: "judge not lest ye be judged." Otherwise what is is. My original point, which you completely miss, is that while a man may THINK that he is an existentialist, only dogs, cats, and other animals really ARE. Thus the very existence of this thread undermines your position that God does not exist.
You think some perceive evil just because there is a God. How droll.
I am not an atheist but to think that they would think evil does not exist as they see criminals at work and doing evil would be rather droll.
You might want to rethink and yes, atheists can make moral judgements and they are often more moral than most Christians as most Christians have developed a double standard where they praise their God for doing what they condemn in men. Those Christians are immoral.
Judge as you should, without the fear of God.
Regards DL
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jonkon
Master of the Arts
Posts: 111
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Post by jonkon on Aug 7, 2014 22:17:52 GMT
I find it droll that you think that evil can exist apart from a holy, righteous God. "Evil" is nothing more than the misuse of what God intends for our good. Thus there is nothing inherently wrong in a thief wanting money; what makes his actions evil is the dehumanization of his victim. There is an inherent conflict built into Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs as satisfaction of the more strongly felt basic needs, such as hunger and thirst, can thwart the satisfaction of higher needs, such as self-actualization. We can only live a virtuous life as we place God as the center of our priorities, hence the first commandment is: "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." I do not doubt that atheists can make moral judgements, but then to proceed to claim that there is no God merely reflects their own shallow thinking on the matter. For if there is no God, there is no rational basis for your claim that evil exists as well. What is is, and nothing more. The hypocrisy of Christians is not germane to the issue, as that is why God, in the person of Christ, had to come to Earth to die in our place as punishment for our offenses against Himself.
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Post by ignorantianescia on Aug 11, 2014 8:01:01 GMT
To address the OP, it's not that hard. There are quite some benefits to belief in a creator God.
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Post by gnosticbishop on Sept 10, 2014 16:40:07 GMT
I find it droll that you think that evil can exist apart from a holy, righteous God. "Evil" is nothing more than the misuse of what God intends for our good. Thus there is nothing inherently wrong in a thief wanting money; what makes his actions evil is the dehumanization of his victim. There is an inherent conflict built into Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs as satisfaction of the more strongly felt basic needs, such as hunger and thirst, can thwart the satisfaction of higher needs, such as self-actualization. We can only live a virtuous life as we place God as the center of our priorities, hence the first commandment is: "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." I do not doubt that atheists can make moral judgements, but then to proceed to claim that there is no God merely reflects their own shallow thinking on the matter. For if there is no God, there is no rational basis for your claim that evil exists as well. What is is, and nothing more. The hypocrisy of Christians is not germane to the issue, as that is why God, in the person of Christ, had to come to Earth to die in our place as punishment for our offenses against Himself. jameshannam.proboards.com/thread/1359/help-evil
Let's talk evil in that link.
As to your view, Jesus said to seek God. He did not say to seek him. He said he was the way to God, not God himself.
Only fools believe that dead men can walk or that a God would be stupid enough to condemn us just to turn around and die to forgive us.
Regards DL
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Post by gnosticbishop on Sept 10, 2014 16:42:20 GMT
To address the OP, it's not that hard. There are quite some benefits to belief in a creator God. Can you force yourself to believe something you do not believe in?
As to benefits, what are they and are they worth you discarding reason and logic for?
Regards DL
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Post by ignorantianescia on Sept 11, 2014 11:03:09 GMT
To address the OP, it's not that hard. There are quite some benefits to belief in a creator God. Can you force yourself to believe something you do not believe in? That depends on your idea of belief. If you have a modern, Protestant notion of belief, then only sincere belief would do, so then it's a no. But how is this pertinent? I didn't suggest to delude oneself. As to benefits, what are they and are they worth you discarding reason and logic for? The second part of your question makes it loaded. You are stating something that I never implied and that I in fact reject. Can you demonstrate that one has to discard these when one believes in a creator God? Some benefits: - Belief in a creator God avoids belief in an uncaused multi- or universe (problems of infinite regress), a self-caused multi- or universe (contradictory) or a multi- or universe mechanistically caused by an uncaused cause (on what variable does that depend?). - It offers a ground for ethics that extends beyond this mere universe and can connect these to our moral instinct, as a Creator could plan ahead so that we'd end up with the proper instincts. - Such belief can explain the narrow parameters for this universe to evolve in such a way to allow life. One might even venture the suggestion that such belief is almost rational! |
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