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Post by timoneill on Oct 30, 2014 6:53:03 GMT
My copy of this arrived today: John Loftus (ed.) Christianity is Not Great: How Faith Fails(Prometheus, 2014). I've only had a quick skim through it. But what I read of Carrier's chapter entitled "The Dark Ages" ... hoo boy! Artie Ziff has gone beyond all his previous efforts. His thesis is (i) Christianity didn't cause the Dark Ages (because not even he can twist the evidence to that extent), but it did nothing to prevent them or fix the damage caused by the fall of the Empire and (ii) the revival of lost knowledge happened in the Dark Ages (the term "the Middle Ages" is a plot of some kind by "the desperate", apparently), but the guys who brought it about didn't do so because of anything to do with Christianity. Loftus contributes a chapter on the Witch Craze that includes a drooling section on torture, including a lament about the use of the "Iron Maiden", despite the fact no such thing was ever actually used. The rest of the book seems to be on about this level of scholarship. And Carrier's chapter is written with the tone of a snotty and insufferable sixteen year old know-it-all in need of a good smack to the head. Here's his final sentence: "Christianity dragged us down into the sewers of dystopia and kept us there, and forced us to endure a long crawl back out, setting us back more than a thousand years on nearly every cultural and intellectual measure of human existence." I'm sitting here now looking the picture of Chartres Cathedral on my desktop, with its white walls soaring against the cloudless blue autumn sky when I was there this time last year. "Sewer" and "dystopia" aren't words that spring to mind. |
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Post by evangelion on Oct 30, 2014 6:55:42 GMT
Iron maiden? Seriously? Are these people trying to look like idiots now?
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Post by timoneill on Oct 30, 2014 9:11:58 GMT
Iron maiden? Seriously? Are these people trying to look like idiots now? Maybe the are just big fans of Bruce Dickinson. |
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Post by unkleE on Oct 30, 2014 21:11:40 GMT
Well I've learned something. I didn't know Iron Maidens didn't actually exist in the Middle Ages - though I also didn't know what they were and I never really took an interest in them, so that's not all that surprising. But how hard is it to fact check before you write? - I Googled and the first 3 search results all told the same story.
It is interesting. In internet discussions, I almost never find anyone referencing John Loftus or any of his books, but many atheists reference Richard Carrier (I think because he has a PhD and has written books, and that makes him a "scholar"), and are quite offended if I point out that he's just about the only person with a PhD who thinks some of the things he says. For some reason, Carrier seems to be a better self-publicist than Loftus.
PS Tim, not that it matters much, but your link to the book is actually to this site.
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Post by timoneill on Oct 30, 2014 22:02:44 GMT
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Post by merkavah12 on Oct 30, 2014 22:55:00 GMT
I can't help it. I have to use it:
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Post by unkleE on Oct 31, 2014 2:59:25 GMT
Curious. That one works OK. |
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Post by ignorantianescia on Oct 31, 2014 12:21:55 GMT
Up the Irons! And Carrier's chapter is written with the tone of a snotty and insufferable sixteen year old know-it-all in need of a good smack to the head. Here's his final sentence: "Christianity dragged us down into the sewers of dystopia and kept us there, and forced us to endure a long crawl back out, setting us back more than a thousand years on nearly every cultural and intellectual measure of human existence." Does this mean that Carrier believes in the take-home message of The Chart now?  That final sentence seems to contradict the claim that Christianity didn't cause the Middle Ages. |
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Post by James Hannam on Nov 1, 2014 8:14:07 GMT
I've read the Carrier chapter on the Dark Ages. Oh dear. The one he did for the last Loftus collection, The Christian Delusion. was quite good. Utterly wrong but lots you could get you teeth into. I wrote three blog posts on it. (http://bedejournal.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/was-christianity-responsible-for-modern.html, bedejournal.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/was-christianity-responsible-for-modern_09.html, bedejournal.blogspot.co.uk/2010/09/richard-carrier-on-ancient-science.html, ) But this one reads like something knocked off in a spare hour. No scholarship, almost no references, no engagement with the primary material. A shame. It has some weird passages like blaming Christianity for holding back democracy for a thousand years - as if the Roman Empire was not a military despotism. And attacking Isidore of Seville for his rewrite of Pliny - as if it was not very much in the tradition of Roman encyclopaedias. And finally writing about the early middle ages with no mention of the Goths, Huns, Vikings, Vandals and other motley crews who, a few deluded historians believe, had something to do with the loss of much civil society after 400AD. I've been asked to do a lengthy critique of these two Carrier chapters which I'm looking forward too.  Best wishes James |
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Post by sandwiches on Nov 2, 2014 13:12:07 GMT
I've been asked to do a lengthy critique of these two Carrier chapters which I'm looking forward too.I do hope you are not too unkind. Though, I recently came across a certain person's review of: "Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth" by Bart Ehrmann): freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/1026Ehrman on Jesus: A Failure of Facts and Logic
Having completed and fully annotated Ehrman’s new book Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth (Harper 2012), I can officially say it is filled with factual errors, logical fallacies, and badly worded arguments.
Ehrman falsely claims my degree is only in “classics,” a strange ploy I’ll remark on later); but it is his incompetence in classics (e.g. knowledge of ancient culture and literature) and ancient history (e.g. understanding the methodology of the field and the background facts of the period) that trips him up several times. [/i] One can't help thinking that the gifted and forthright author of such remarks will be grateful for a very thorough and relentless review of his own work.
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Post by wraggy on Nov 2, 2014 21:55:24 GMT
I haven't read Ehrman's book, but Casey did mention that Ehrman made some regrettable blunders in a book on the historical Jesus. Would anyone here recommend Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth (Harper 2012) given that there are only a few books out that specifically deal with the issue of the internet phenomenon of Jesus mythicism? I have read Casey's book.
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Post by evangelion on Nov 3, 2014 0:30:05 GMT
I haven't read Ehrman's book, but Casey did mention that Ehrman made some regrettable blunders in a book on the historical Jesus. Would anyone here recommend Did Jesus Exist? The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth (Harper 2012) given that there are only a few books out that specifically deal with the issue of the internet phenomenon of Jesus mythicism? I have read Casey's book. Erhman's book is definitely worth reading. It's not as strong as I expected (Casey is better, IMHO) but it's still something you could recommend to a friend who's just started exploring the topic. |
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Post by unkleE on Nov 3, 2014 6:09:41 GMT
I haven't read either book, but I note that Carrier was more scornful and rude about Casey's book (he was quite awfully personal) than he was about about Ehrman's. Does this indicate that he really thought it wasn't as well written, or that it criticised him or his views more and so he reacted more?
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Post by wraggy on Nov 3, 2014 8:47:04 GMT
I will hazard a guess at the latter.
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Post by ignorantianescia on Nov 3, 2014 18:01:10 GMT
And so do I. Casey probably threatens a certain worldview with more gusto (sorry, couldn't resist). Casey also spent more pages on the Mythicists' personal background and referenced a number of blogs for that. Some Mythicists pile on that to discredit him and they probably dislike him more for it. |
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