|
Post by Al Moritz on Sept 6, 2008 9:31:26 GMT
Reluctantly, the only way out I can see is to be a dualist, and believe "we" and our minds are more than our brains. Reluctantly? I am a dualist with gusto.
|
|
|
Post by rfmoo on Sept 6, 2008 12:51:48 GMT
I don't scorn dualism, but I can't prove it. Intuitively, I prefer it. The Catholic Church teaches that the soul is separable, but that the body and soul are integral parts of the whole human being. The scientific abhorrence of dualism is almost as great as the hatred of some scientists for God, and the sceptics, who are legion, (and most philosophers) argue that dualism creates insuperable intellectual and scientific difficulties and violates Occam's razor.
I believe in the survival of consciousness. Please note, the continuity of consciousness--the person is continuously aware after the body has died through the saving power of God. The details are currently unknown to me. Of course I believe in the resurrection of the dead and that our destiny in the Kingdom is a life in union with God and one another in glorified bodies.
Best,
Richard Moorton
|
|
|
Post by Al Moritz on Sept 6, 2008 14:54:33 GMT
No, I am not an Intelligent Design guy, I am a firm upholder of the origin of life by chemical evolution and of all aspects of biological evolution. Yet only up and until the emergence of the human mind. For a Christian to go so far as to try to accomodate the human mind under the evolution umbrella as well is fearful caving in to scientific "political correctness", in my view. Let me explain further: I believe evolution (physical, chemical and biological evolution) is "self-sufficient" to explain the emergence of all things material. But obviously, the power of evolution has to stop at things that are not pure matter, like the human mind.
|
|
|
Post by hawkinthesnow on Sept 6, 2008 17:38:39 GMT
I think some kind of dualism must be true. I see no problem with accepting that consciousness is generated by the brain and is dependent on it in a physical environment, but that does not mean that consciousness could not exist in another medium when the brain dies. After all, what is the brain? Matter. And what is matter? It is certainly more than tiny little atoms bumping around. I am not of a very scientific bent, but I recall reading somewhere that an atom is 99% "empty space".
So, I don't think we really know enough about the physical world to categorically deny that some form of dualism is possible. And of course if we are Christians we uphold the view that matter (whatever it is), ultimately depends upon consciousness (the Divine consciousness), in order to exist at all.
|
|
|
Post by unkleE on Sept 8, 2008 23:22:34 GMT
Thanks for the helpful comments on dualism. I wonder if I could then go back to the original question (sort of). It asked when, in evolution, a soul became a component of humanity, but if we follow the recent comments on dualism, we have a slightly different question.
If dualism is true, how does it work? Or can we never really know, because our knowledge is based on scientific observation, which doesn't work here? For example, are there properties of matter that have been in creation from the beginning which allow non-material mind to form? Or are we hybrid physical-spiritual creatures that live in two dimensions, and we can observe and measure in the physical world, but, presently, only vaguely observe and understand the spiritual world? (The nearest example I can think of is Frodo putting on the ring and seeing a different world while still half existing in the normal world.) And if the latter, is that much different to a soul (though not immortal)?
I have difficulty even framing these questions, but I hope you can see what I'm driving at. If I'm going to believe in some form of dualism (which I seem unable to avoid), then I'd like at least to be able to explain it a little, albeit speculatively.
|
|
Mike D
Master of the Arts
Posts: 204
|
Post by Mike D on Sept 9, 2008 7:47:42 GMT
Indeed. While dualism does seem to offer some answers (in terms of rationality, free-will and possibly the experience of qualia) it also raises an equal number of questions.
If we are dualistic beings, was the addition of the non-material bit a direct intervention by God, was it also accomplished as part of a process like evolution or have all living creatures got it to some extent or another? I'd guess it would have to be by direct intervention, either at the start of life or as an addition - although natural selection could operate on anything that gives a survival/breeding advantage, I can't see how mutation could produce something non-material.
If there is a part of people that is non-material, what is it and how does it interface with the material?
Mike
|
|
bret
Clerk
Posts: 24
|
Post by bret on Oct 10, 2008 8:20:31 GMT
Great posts guys, I especially like Richard and Unklee's comments. Unklee gave a great explanation of the difference between eternal and everlasting. I can add my two cents worth by agreeing that the difference is more qualitative. In Hebrew there are two words like there is in English. Eternal is defined differently, it is everlasting (forever) but it also means godlike. So eternal life means godlike life, were everlasting life means a life that exists forever. See the qualitative difference?
I do disagree about the mortality of the soul. I believe the soul or spirit within our bodies is immortal and I think Unklee’s reference of Matt 10:28 validates my belief. Jesus stated that man cannot kill the soul, only the body, but God has power to kill both the body and soul. I do not believe that God would kill our souls, even though he has power to do so, I believe that he created them and that he truly is the Father of our souls. If man can only kill the body then the soul must continue to live!
There are a few Christian churches that believe in death of the soul at the time of the body and that the soul will be resurrected in the future; however, there is a lot more scriptural evidence to our spirits living past death, as well as non-empirical testimony of many having life after death experiences.
Upon death we do not die and go to heaven, rather we die and our spirits go to a spirit world with divisions (paradise & prison or hell), there we wait for our resurrection. Upon death, Jesus’ body was laid in a tomb, but his spirit went to paradise (Luke 23:43). During the short time He was in paradise He bridged the great gulf (See parable of Lazarus, Luke 16:19-26) that separated paradise from prison (hell) and preached the gospel to the spirits in prison (John 5:25, 1 Peter 3:18-20, 1 Peter 4:6, Psalms 15:9-10). Shortly after His resurrection, Jesus ascended to His Father which is in heaven (John 20:17). Do you see the difference between paradise and heaven?
Some time in the future we all will receive a physical resurrection (Luke 24:36-39), both the just and the unjust (1 Cor. 15:22). Though all will receive this universal resurrection, we will receive varying degrees of glory to the body that we will be resurrected with, as Paul pointed out to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 15:40-42). The not so righteous will not have as glorified resurrected body as the righteous. Metaphorically the Sun, Moon and Stars vary in glory as do our resurrected bodies.
Just as Christianity has some misconceptions of heaven, it also has them of hell. Heaven will be after the resurrection and final judgment, not right after death. Hell is a temporary station (Psalms 15:9-10) that is not like the devil and a pitch fork for eternity. It can mean misery, sorrow, and regret to many of the spirits there, and finally redemption to those who accept the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ while in the Spirit World. Just as Jesus ordained disciples when He was on earth and sent them forth to preach the gospel (Luke 9:1-2, Luke 10:1, Mark 3:14) He likewise did the same in the Spirit World while He was there during those 3 days his body lied in the tomb.
How can everyone receive a fair judgment, when most have never heard of Jesus Christ in this life? This question has haunted theologians for 18 centuries. The answer is that the dead that have not had a fair opportunity in the flesh, will get a fair opportunity in the Spirit World, “For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit” (1 Peter 4:6)
In the spirit world, our spirit (personality, intelligence, finite matter) will be like it is now, some will accept Christ and his gospel. We will have varying degrees of faith and commitment like we do now. Most will think that Christ’s messengers in the spirit world are wrong and not listen, it is similar to our world now.
You have never heard this doctrine preached in any of your churches have you? Does it make sense, and is it logical? Is it fair to all mankind both the dead and the living, the heathen and the learned, and the child that dies in infancy? Is it scriptural? Does it answer questions that no one has been able to answer before? This doctrine is not mine, I was taught this and I believe it. (John 7:16-17)
Though your soul is created, it is also everlasting, and can be eternal when combined with a glorified resurrected body through belief and participation in the atonement and grace of Jesus Christ.
|
|