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Post by gakuseidon on Nov 19, 2017 3:00:47 GMT
So, Dr Carrier is placing the myth in 'outer space', whereas Plutarch is NOT placing the myth there, at least in the text referenced by Carrier? Is that what you believe Carrier is saying? No. I'm saying that Carrier uses the term "outer space" to describe the location of the Osiris myth. Plutarch does not use those words, only Carrier does. It appears you mistakenly believed that Carrier was saying that Plutarch uses the words "outer space." Carrier did not write that Plutarch uses the words "outer space." WTF??? Look, I've said four times on this thread (not to mention including a definition in the section you cut and pasted from my review in the OP) what Carrier means by 'outer space' (air, firmament, the heavens), and also said clearly that if Plutarch used any of those words or anything similar, then it would be consistent with Dr Carrier's point. How could you miss that four times in a thread that lasted 1 page I couldn't have stated things more clearly. So to say I believe that Carrier is saying that Plutarch uses the words "outer space" is simply ridiculous. That kind of bad reading is a sign that you're wasting my time. So let's leave it at that.
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jagella
Bachelor of the Arts
Posts: 86
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Post by jagella on Nov 19, 2017 14:49:39 GMT
WTF??? Look, I've said four times on this thread (not to mention including a definition in the section you cut and pasted from my review in the OP) what Carrier means by 'outer space' (air, firmament, the heavens), and also said clearly that if Plutarch used any of those words or anything similar, then it would be consistent with Dr Carrier's point. How could you miss that four times in a thread that lasted 1 page I couldn't have stated things more clearly. So to say I believe that Carrier is saying that Plutarch uses the words "outer space" is simply ridiculous. That kind of bad reading is a sign that you're wasting my time. So let's leave it at that. Let cooler heads prevail! Attachments:
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Post by fortigurn on Nov 20, 2017 3:30:51 GMT
Let cooler heads prevail! Why are you avoiding the question? The issue is that you have been shown plainly that Carrier claimed Plutarch actually described Osiris as being killed and incarnated in outer space. No one claimed that Plutarch used the words "outer space", but Carrier claimed he used words which had the same meaning. You have misrepresented Carrier. You said this. . Carrier does say Plutarch is explicit about this incarnation and death taking place in outer space. Here are his words again. This is important to Carrier's argument, because he claims that the early Christians believed that Jesus was likewise killed and resurrected in "outer space". This is a part of his argument which you are avoiding. So here are the questions for you. 1. Do you agree that Plutarch does not say that Osiris' death and incarnation took place in outer space, which means Carrier is wrong in his understanding of Plutarch? 2. Do you understand that the earliest Christians did not believe Jesus was a god, which means that dying and raising gods have no relevance to the historicity of Jesus?
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jagella
Bachelor of the Arts
Posts: 86
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Post by jagella on Nov 20, 2017 3:52:53 GMT
Let cooler heads prevail! Why are you avoiding the question? The issue is that you have been shown plainly that Carrier claimed Plutarch actually described Osiris as being killed and incarnated in outer space. No one claimed that Plutarch used the words "outer space", but Carrier claimed he used words which had the same meaning. You have misrepresented Carrier. You said this. . Carrier does say Plutarch is explicit about this incarnation and death taking place in outer space. Here are his words again. This is important to Carrier's argument, because he claims that the early Christians believed that Jesus was likewise killed and resurrected in "outer space". This is a part of his argument which you are avoiding. So here are the questions for you. 1. Do you agree that Plutarch does not say that Osiris' death and incarnation took place in outer space, which means Carrier is wrong in his understanding of Plutarch? 2. Do you understand that the earliest Christians did not believe Jesus was a god, which means that dying and raising gods have no relevance to the historicity of Jesus? This one is long overdue. Attachments:
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Post by timoneill on Nov 20, 2017 4:10:54 GMT
Why are you avoiding the question? The issue is that you have been shown plainly that Carrier claimed Plutarch actually described Osiris as being killed and incarnated in outer space. No one claimed that Plutarch used the words "outer space", but Carrier claimed he used words which had the same meaning. You have misrepresented Carrier. You said this. . Carrier does say Plutarch is explicit about this incarnation and death taking place in outer space. Here are his words again. This is important to Carrier's argument, because he claims that the early Christians believed that Jesus was likewise killed and resurrected in "outer space". This is a part of his argument which you are avoiding. So here are the questions for you. 1. Do you agree that Plutarch does not say that Osiris' death and incarnation took place in outer space, which means Carrier is wrong in his understanding of Plutarch? 2. Do you understand that the earliest Christians did not believe Jesus was a god, which means that dying and raising gods have no relevance to the historicity of Jesus? This one is long overdue. Pathetic. Answer his questions. Answer Don's points above. Or admit that, yet again, you're having your nose rubbed in just how weak Carrier's stuff actually is. And if you respond to this with another of your weak diversion tactic images, you're admitting you've been beaten here.
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Post by fortigurn on Nov 20, 2017 4:23:40 GMT
This one is long overdue. Why are you not answering simple questions? Why are you not addressing the evidence presented to you? And you can't even represent what I said correctly.
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jagella
Bachelor of the Arts
Posts: 86
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Post by jagella on Nov 20, 2017 18:37:39 GMT
This one is long overdue. Pathetic. Answer his questions. Answer Don's points above. Or admit that, yet again, you're having your nose rubbed in just how weak Carrier's stuff actually is. And if you respond to this with another of your weak diversion tactic images, you're admitting you've been beaten here. Fight fire with fire, and... Fight trolling with trolling! Attachments:
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Post by bjorn on Nov 20, 2017 19:03:04 GMT
This one is long overdue. Why are you not answering simple questions? Why are you not addressing the evidence presented to you? And you can't even represent what I said correctly. To keep replying about «trolls» is a clear indication of not being able to answer seriously. It is rare to witness someone so obviously out of his depth.
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jagella
Bachelor of the Arts
Posts: 86
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Post by jagella on Nov 20, 2017 19:05:33 GMT
This one is long overdue. Why are you not answering simple questions? Why are you not addressing the evidence presented to you? And you can't even represent what I said correctly. Represent this. Attachments:
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Post by James Hannam on Nov 20, 2017 20:37:31 GMT
Jagella has left us.
Apologies to those who thought this was overdue, but I was being too optimistic about his desire for a constructive debate.
Best wishes
James
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Post by timoneill on Nov 20, 2017 21:25:05 GMT
Jagella has left us. Apologies to those who thought this was overdue, but I was being too optimistic about his desire for a constructive debate. Best wishes James
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Post by jamierobertson on Nov 21, 2017 12:21:13 GMT
I wondered how long it would take. I know this forum is quieter than it used to be, but I can't recall the last time someone was banned.
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Post by sandwiches on Nov 30, 2017 22:09:40 GMT
Larry Hurtado has been scrutinising Richard Carrier: larryhurtado.wordpress.com/2017/11/30/the-mythic-jesus-last-hurrah/Despite Carrier’s evangelistic prophecies that the scholarly world will come to see that he, though now a voice in the wilderness, is correct in judging Jesus of Nazareth to be a mythical invention, there is in fact no sign of fulfillment. He is a paid advocate of his views (having been hired to produce these books), not a disinterested or dispassionate assessor of things. He is not expert in the very subjects on which he writes in these books, and his mishandling of the evidence shows this all to clearly. I conclude that, in so far as scholarly judgment of the matter is concerned, Carrier’s often-strident efforts will be judged as the last hurrah of the “mythicist” claim, although internet die-hards are likely to remain doggedly committed to it.
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Post by jamierobertson on Dec 1, 2017 11:05:55 GMT
I conclude that, in so far as scholarly judgment of the matter is concerned, Carrier’s often-strident efforts will be judged as the last hurrah of the “mythicist” claim, although internet die-hards are likely to remain doggedly committed to it. Seems optimistic to me. There's no reason I can see that Mythicism will become less popular; Hurtado certainly doesn't offer one. A failure of the establishment to give Carrier anything more than a roll of the eyeballs will simply be seen as further evidence of either a great conspiracy of scholarship, or a sign of Carrier being terribly ahead of his time.
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Post by ignorantianescia on Dec 1, 2017 19:03:53 GMT
In fairness to Hurtado, his conclusions were only "in so far as scholarly judgment of the matter is concerned".
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