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Post by zameel on Jan 2, 2010 21:14:21 GMT
It also speaks volumes that you questioned attacks against Jews by claiming these incidents, including the woman who was mutilated by two Arabs, as an attack that was faked. I claimed only that one of the incidents mentioned in the report was known to be faked: They point to a case in 2004 where a woman with similar claims, including that swastikas were carved into her body, later admitted to have made the story up. As it turned out, she was not even Jewish.I would rather look at the numbers first then go by incidents Numbers may be unreliable due to underreporting, bias in the police (there have been several cases of this), and hyping up other communties' victim status. For an accurate quantitative comparison we could look at specific hate incidents e.g. arson attacks in Europe in the year 2006, or something similar like violent hate attacks in a particular year. |
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Post by James Hannam on Jan 3, 2010 18:26:39 GMT
Guys,
I'm just back from a few days away for New Year (I don't announce my holidays on the net in advance as bad people could find out my address without any trouble).
Anyway, a big thank you for this fascinating thread and also that we can discuss these hot button issues passionately but without crossing the line into ranting and raving.
Best wishes
James
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Post by zameel on Jan 3, 2010 22:56:48 GMT
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Post by krkey1 on Jan 3, 2010 23:41:33 GMT
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Post by zameel on Jan 4, 2010 7:50:17 GMT
This is typical hate propaganda. It would be akin to someone getting their information on Christianity from www.christianaggression.org/ www.crusadewatch.org/index.php www.theocracywatch.org/ (although, these are far more sensible and sober). Most of the militant activity that it records come from Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia and Thailand. The first four suffer (or did suffer) from military occupation. In Pakistan, in this last year US drones killed 140:1 ratio of civilians to al-Qaeda members (about 700 civilians for 5 al-Qaeda) - surely, that is terrorism www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/18-over-700-killed-in-44-drone-strikes-in-2009-am-01 . Furthermore, Blackwater, whose founder a radical Christian who believes he is carrying out a crusade in Muslim lands, after murdering and torturing civilians in Iraq, were acquited by the American courts. In Somalia, a US backed invasion of Somalia by Ethiopia, was the the catalyst for al-Shabab a splinter of the ICU - despite, the fact the ICU were always a moderate group, which only now the US realise (after creating al-Shabab) that it is the solution. In Thailand, the violence escalated in 2004, when Thai forces killed over a 100 Muslims, many of them taking shelter in a mosque: www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/thai-forces-kill-107-after-islamists-attack-police-bases-561600.html . Such one-dimensional analysis serves only to confirm the prejudice and bias propagated in the media (in particular, American media). It includes a false or eschewed picture of Islamic theology that help promote the view that the extremist fringes are mainstream Islam which then desensitizes most people from countless Muslim deaths (since, if they're all militants, what's the problem?) - for instance, in the recent Yemen strikes most of the 60 or so killed were civilians, and only a handful were from al-Qaeda, and these attacks were far from necessary. Also for the "moderate" Islamist view (which represents the view of most Muslims in occupied lands), see the Muslim Brotherhood's official website: www.ikhwanweb.com/ - the tactics of al-Qaeda (targetting civilians, using suicide terrorism) is rejected but US troops are not welcome as they have no legitimate reasons for being there |
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Post by krkey1 on Jan 4, 2010 16:43:14 GMT
Zameel
I am sure the website just made up it daily list of terror attacks. I am sure they even fabricated the links to mainstream websites too.
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Post by krkey1 on Jan 4, 2010 17:00:32 GMT
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Post by zameel on Jan 5, 2010 11:18:13 GMT
If you read some of my posts and the sites I linked, this would certainly not be surprising as it is the typical pattern of extremism. The individual was not introduced to an extremist Islam, as his friend says ("The man I knew did not believe in suicide bombings," he says. "He did not believe in carrying weapons and fighting among the Muslims. He did not believe in calling people disbelievers just because they had a dispute with you"), and he was not a scholar or alim, nor were his views mainstream in the Muslim community. All the major Salafist/Wahhabi/Deobandi/traditionalist ulama/religious scholars have condemned al-Qaeda tactics (as well as al-Shabaab), as have mainstream Islamist organisations (http://www.ikhwanweb.com/); although they share similar greivances, the methods of barbarism and terrorism are never sanctioned. In fact Zawahiri wrote large tracts against the Muslim Brotherhood, and he even threatened to kill a Palestinian fighter who refuses to target civilians or use suicide terrorism (http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/23/schuster.column/index.html). Rather than engaging with the fringe elements that do not represent Muslim views (and are so marginal that Mulla Omar's Taliban have recently denounced al-Qaeda and distanced themselves from them (despite Obama's lies that they are one and the same), and have always claimed they are no threat to Americans unless they enter Afghanistan), you should engage with mainstream Islamic views - it would be similar to talking about Assam, IRA, LRA and Blackwater USA in the same breath as mainstream Christianity. |
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Post by zameel on Jan 5, 2010 11:18:31 GMT
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Post by zameel on Jan 5, 2010 11:36:23 GMT
Please don't listen to Anjem Choudary, Mehdi Hasan: www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/jan/04/anjum-choudary-wootton-bassett...Our sensationalist and irresponsible media has, in fact, been deeply complicit in the rise and rise of this fanatic, devoting quite disproportionate and counter-productive coverage to his various rantings. Is Choudary an Islamic scholar whose views merit attention or consideration? No. Has he studied under leading Islamic scholars? Nope. Does he have any Islamic qualifications or credentials? None whatsoever. So what gives him the right to pontificate on Islam, British Muslims or "the hellfire"? Or proclaim himself a "sharia judge"? Will he even manage to round up enough misfits to carry the 500 coffins with him? I doubt it – Choudary and co couldn't even persuade enough people to join a "march for sharia" that they had proudly planned to hold in central London in late October, and, at the very last minute, had to humiliatingly withdraw from their own rally. Pathetic, eh? The fact is that Choudary is as unrepresentative of British Muslim opinion, as he is of British anti-war opinion. Compare the Islam4UK leader with Prestwick protester Marcus Armstrong. The latter went to prison in protest over the British government's alleged collusion in Israel's bombardment of Lebanon in 2006; the former lives safe and sound in a £350,000 house in east London, a recipient of benefits from the same state he so reviles and repudiates... |
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Post by penguinfan on Jan 7, 2010 4:38:39 GMT
Oh, I definitely agree. Unfortunately, incidents of underreporting would logically apply to every other ethnic or religious group just as much as it does for Muslims. Similarly, it's already been shown that Muslims have themselves also been caught 'hyping' up their communities' victim status. No word on that, I see. I did come across this article on the web on anti semitic attacks in France from from January to May 12 of 2002: www.kintera.org/atf/cf/%7BDFD2AAC1-2ADE-428A-9263-35234229D8D8%7D/franceattacks.pdfI lost count to how many arson attacks against Jewish centers and synagogues there were. Perhaps you can pick up where I left off and compare the number of Jewish centers and synagogues which were attacked to Muslim centers and masjids attacked in Britain in the same year. Please be sure to also adjust for population differences between Jews in France with Muslims in Britain. While you're doing that, maybe you can get around to answering my last question that was posed to you and has so far been ignored: Why are French Muslims more tolerant and less prone to fundamentalism than British Muslims despite French Muslims having been more discriminated against and marginalized? |
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Post by penguinfan on Jan 7, 2010 5:35:49 GMT
An interesting excerpt from a Telegraph article I found online (the original article seems to have been lost?): The headline findings contradict the body of the
report. This says most of the 193 violent attacks on
synagogues, Jewish schools, kosher shops, cemeteries
and rabbis in France in 2002 - up from 32 in 2001 -
were "ascribed to youth from neighbourhoods sensitive
to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, principally of
North African descent.
"The percentage attributable to the extreme Right was
only nine per cent in 2002," it said.
The report on Belgium said most of the fire-bomb and
machine-gun attacks on Jewish targets were the result
of a spillover from the Palestinian intifada.groups.yahoo.com/group/Support_Israel/message/11176Again, happy to compare the numbers. It looks like the attacks against Jews in France during the first 4.5 months of 2002 dwarf the number of attacks against Muslims in 2005 or 2006, which came at the tail end of the 7/7 bombing and 7/21 unsuccesful bombing (ignoring the numerous other failed/thwarted terror bombings. It's also interesting to note that Britain's Muslim population is larger than France's Jewish population. Additionally, we are also ignoring attacks against a certain segment of Britain's population carried out by some groups that is usually ignored by the media. card.wordpress.com/2006/11/12/the-hidden-white-victims-of-racism/So, what do you say, Zameel? Do you want to compare the number of Masjids and Muslim centers attacked in Britain in 2006 with attacks against Synagogues and Jewish centers in France for 2002? I wouldn't want to compare attacks against Muslims before the 7/7 bombings, in which fifty-two innocent civilians were murdered (many more more injured - certainly dwarfing anything you've posted), since that would just be unfair for you (in regards to numbers). |
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Post by eckadimmock on Jan 7, 2010 9:23:08 GMT
I came across some stats for 2008 on hate crimes in the US complied by the FBI. It seems being black, gay or Jewish are the biggest risk factors, with hate crimes against Muslims and Christians similar percentages. Of course, it should be remembered that there are not nearly as many Jews or Muslims in the US, so the proportion of people in those groups must be much higher. Of the anti-religious crimes, a whopping 65% were anti-Jewish. Looking at the tables on the right hand side, I was a little surprised that the most dangerous state appears to be California in terms of total offenses. |
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Post by krkey1 on Jan 11, 2010 17:17:07 GMT
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Post by penguinfan on Jan 11, 2010 20:12:53 GMT
I came across some stats for 2008 on hate crimes in the US complied by the FBI. It seems being black, gay or Jewish are the biggest risk factors, with hate crimes against Muslims and Christians similar percentages. Of course, it should be remembered that there are not nearly as many Jews or Muslims in the US, so the proportion of people in those groups must be much higher. Of the anti-religious crimes, a whopping 65% were anti-Jewish. Looking at the tables on the right hand side, I was a little surprised that the most dangerous state appears to be California in terms of total offenses. Thanks for your post. I also posted a graph of these results in an earlier post on this thread. It shows that despite the victimization of some members on this thread, the facts show that Jews are (and remain to be) the most targeted religious group in both the US and Western Europe. I also see that there has been no response to the link I posted documenting attacks against Jews during the first four and half months for 2002 in France and comparing the number of arson attacks against Jewish religious buildings and community centers with attacks against Muslim religious buildings and community centers in Britain after the 7/7 bombings (where another article also showed that British Jews were more likely to be victims than British Muslims were). |
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