"Raising and lowering them into the fire'

[bjorn]

My daughter studies at a Christian High School. It is a private school, though the text books are the same as in the public ones.

Today she showed me her history book for this term. It had of course all the well known simplistic angles and myths ("Bruno was tortured and burned for his cosmology", "Though most learned people for a long time had believed the earth to be round, Magellan finally proved it to be so", "In the muslim world the crusades led to a hostility and antipathy against christians that has continued to our time" etc. ).

There was however also a new one, at least to me.

Talking about the witchcraze it is said that both heretics and witches could be burned by being tied to a pole such that "the victim was raised and lowered over the flames to prolong the sufferings". A "woodcut based on a drawing by Felix Philippoteaux, 1894" supposedly shows an execution in Paris 1520.

Googling a bit I found the image at tinyurl.com/3435mls, and the following info:

"Burning at stake: - 'Burning of witches and heretics in Paris, by raising and lowering them into the fire'. - Wood engr. after drawing by Felix Philippoteaux (1815-1884), later colouring. From: J.G.Vogt, Illustrierte Weltgeschichte fuer das Volk, Vl.4, Leip- zig (E.Wiest) 1894. Coll. Archiv f.Kunst & Geschichte."

Another Flammarion?

[rtaylor]

The idea of burning at the stake was so that the victim would die the most painfull death possible, slowly. It was designed to demonstrate the fires of Hell, which all good Christians believed in then. It was also a public spectacle, so usually a number of people would be burned at once, just to keep it interesting. This burning happened after the victims had been in prison for some time, and every now and then being tortured in order to get them to confess, or to tell the authourities who their accomplices where. There was at least one victim who was kept in prison for seven years or so until finally being burned alive. Usualy,in the name of Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. They must have been awful times to live in.

There is a book in my local library entitled, The Malleous Malificarum. By Spenger and...... ? , another mad monk, whose name I forget. it told you how to find a witch or heretic, what the bible said should be done with them, it gave plenty of chapter and verse condemning non-belief, or dis-agreeing with the then established ideas about God and the bible.
Thank goodness we live in more enlightened times.
Let us hope we never go down that road again.

[noons]

It may have been an awful time to live in, but I'd still rather live in the Europe of 1500 than the Europe of 1914-1918.

But back onto the subject: is there any literature on how often people were burned at the stake? I'm not looking for a bold, unsubstantiated assertion followed by a simplistic explanation of the ideas and attitudes of the people at the time.

[blessedkarl]

Oct 6, 2010 15:13:41 GMT rtaylor said:

The idea of burning at the stake was so that the victim would die the most painfull death possible, slowly. It was designed to demonstrate the fires of Hell, which all good Christians believed in then. It was also a public spectacle, so usually a number of people would be burned at once, just to keep it interesting. This burning happened after the victims had been in prison for some time, and every now and then being tortured in order to get them to confess, or to tell the authourities who their accomplices where. There was at least one victim who was kept in prison for seven years or so until finally being burned alive. Usualy,in the name of Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. They must have been awful times to live in.

There is a book in my local library entitled, The Malleous Malificarum. By Spenger and...... ? , another mad monk, whose name I forget. it told you how to find a witch or heretic, what the bible said should be done with them, it gave plenty of chapter and verse condemning non-belief, or dis-agreeing with the then established ideas about God and the bible.
Thank goodness we live in more enlightened times.
Let us hope we never go down that road again.

Don't listen to this nonsense. The book "The Spanish Inquisition" by noted and prolific historian, Henry Kamen, is THE most authoritative book on the inquisition at present. Actually burnings were carried out away from public squares. No screaming or cheering mobs, gleeful to see someone burnt. Also, the Spanish Inquisitors dismissed witchcraft as a sign of insanity.

As for your daughter's book: go find books written by reputable historians. Ignore garbage high school history textbooks which seek to propagate myths rather than lay bare the truth.

[rtaylor]

There have been many awful time throughout history. The awful period of times that man went to at the time of the Holy Inquisition happened because of the Holy Bible. It was interpreted by the Christians of those times in such way as to produce those awful times.
The Holy Bible still has the potential to produce more awful times in the future, depending upon interpretation.
The number of people who suffered pain and death during these awful times will always be in dispute. The fact that those awful things happened in the name of Jesus, Our Lord and Saviour, tells me that Christianity is a persecuting religeon.

There are many books on the Spanish Inquisition. I have not read them all. But they all seem to agree that these things did happen.
I do hope that there are books on the subject in all schools and that is discussed.

[humphreyclarke]

Oct 8, 2010 12:45:03 GMT rtaylor said:

There have been many awful time throughout history.

An outstanding insight

[blessedkarl]

Oct 8, 2010 12:45:03 GMT rtaylor said:

There have been many awful time throughout history. The awful period of times that man went to at the time of the Holy Inquisition happened because of the Holy Bible. It was interpreted by the Christians of those times in such way as to produce those awful times.
The Holy Bible still has the potential to produce more awful times in the future, depending upon interpretation.
The number of people who suffered pain and death during these awful times will always be in dispute. The fact that those awful things happened in the name of Jesus, Our Lord and Saviour, tells me that Christianity is a persecuting religeon.

There are many books on the Spanish Inquisition. I have not read them all. But they all seem to agree that these things did happen.
I do hope that there are books on the subject in all schools and that is discussed.

Excuse me but will you actually attempt to answer my points, please? Considering that it was done by the Spanish kings to strengthen their hold over their country as well as for economic reasons (one interesting view Henry Kamen discusses is that the fact that the Spanish Inquisitors had power to confiscate the material wealth of people they were trying in their courts) renders your judgment too vague. The Spanish Inquisition banned works by St. Theresa of Avila and St. Thomas More. It was also quite xenophobic to the French. My point in making these statements is because you cannot reduce things to such simplistic views. It's like saying "World War II happened cuz Hitler was one bad dude."

[rtaylor]

As far as I know Hitler did not use the Holy Bible as a means to attack those who did not believe in the same things as he did. The Holy Inquisition was done by Christians, in the name of Christianity, using the same bloody banner as Constantine, in an effort to forcibly convert the non-believer. The Popes, Bishops and priests and clergy where all involved to some extent. The Holy Inquisition was even exported to the Americas where many people died the most horrible deaths, in the name of the Saviour of the human race, Jesus Christ. They did this because of their way of interpreting the Holy Book.
The Holy Book still has the potential to be interpreted in that way.
Hitler and the Holy Inquistion are both similar. Although it is not known for sure how many people died at the hands of Christianity. Perhaps millions, perhaps not. Either way you did put Christianity and Hitler in the same sentence, as if there was much of a difference.
Perhaps you are really talking about Ideals.
The imposition of someone else's ideal onto someone else. It becomes evil when it is enforced.

[ignorantianescia]

About your recurrent claim about the potential danger of the Bible:

Newton thought that gravity was the direct action of God in the universe. Since Einstein's theory of general relativity there are methodologically naturalist explanations for this.
But measurements of gravity still have the potential of being interpreted in the same way Newton did.

So what?

(Of course, many counters like this one can be formulated, including ones of a more offensive nature, but I only intend to point out that it is not a very scathing critique.)

Also, blessedkarl's point was that you oversimplify history. You took his phrasing out of context, putting it rather mildly.

[James Hannam]

I've just noticed that the motif of raising and lowering into the fire also appears in the 1970s horror film starring Vincent Price called the Witchfinder General. Did we ever get the bottom of this before rtaylor derailed?

[blessedkarl]

Oct 19, 2010 10:17:13 GMT James Hannam said:

I've just noticed that the motif of raising and lowering into the fire also appears in the 1970s horror film starring Vincent Price called the Witchfinder General. Did we ever get the bottom of this before rtaylor derailed?

No, Dr. Hannam. Rtaylor derailed and I, afraid that certain people would be roped in by the falsehoods he presented, countered. Frankly, I have come to see that arguing with him is pointless.

In your research did you encounter anything to do about what bjorn is speaking of?

[bjorn]

Oct 19, 2010 21:52:37 GMT blessedkarl said:

Oct 19, 2010 10:17:13 GMT James Hannam said:

I've just noticed that the motif of raising and lowering into the fire also appears in the 1970s horror film starring Vincent Price called the Witchfinder General. Did we ever get the bottom of this before rtaylor derailed?

No, Dr. Hannam. Rtaylor derailed and I, afraid that certain people would be roped in by the falsehoods he presented, countered. Frankly, I have come to see that arguing with him is pointless.

In your research did you encounter anything to do about what bjorn is speaking of?

I am still as much in the dark about it, indeed.

Or, to be a more to the point: I have not the slightest reason to believe it to be true.

[rtaylor]

While on the subject of Hitler, from Mien Kampf, his views of Christian persecution.
" The greatness of every powerful organization which embodies a creative idea, lies in the spirit of religeous devotion and intolerence with which it stands out against all others, becauase it has an ardent faith in its own right in itself and , furnished with the fighting weapons I have mentioned, wages war on this earth, then it is invincible, and persecutions will only add to its internal strength. The greatness of Christianity did not arise from attempts to make compromises with those philosophical opinions of the ancient world which had some resemblance to its own doctrine, but from the unrelenting and fanatical proclamation and defence of its own teachings."

Perhaps Hitler saw, in the history of Christianity an example of how a dictator should behave.
Political dictatorship is just as evil as religeous dictatorship.
Religeous dictatorship happens because people believe in a God whose name is Jealous. Exodus 34.14.
Possibly none of the madness of persecution would ever have happened if only God had said that his name was, ' LOVE '.

[bjorn]

Oct 20, 2010 9:47:00 GMT rtaylor said:

Perhaps Hitler saw, in the history of Christianity an example of how a dictator should behave.

What is certain is that it is not possible to take seriously someone confusing Hitler's rhetorics with reality.

[rtaylor]

just trying to not make the same mistakes as in the past.
Religeous dictatorship is no different to political dictatorship.
we should learn the lessons of history.