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Post by timoneill on Jun 3, 2013 21:54:10 GMT
The kind folks on Quora keep asking me when I'm going to write a book. I've always replied "When I think of a book worth writing">
I think I may have.
I'm thinking of writing a series of blog posts on Armarium Magnum entitled "History for Atheists", with each one addressing some of the common misconceptions about ancient and medieval history, the origins of Christianity, the history of early science etc. And then use each of these as a chapter in a (probably self-published) book by the same name.
Thoughts?
And any suggestions for topics/chapters?
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Post by ignorantianescia on Jun 4, 2013 5:34:27 GMT
That sounds like an excellent idea, it would be good if there's a single reference book to refer interested punters to.
As for chapters, I guess I could suggest a few historical topics and they would mostly reflect the topics a Christian would think are important for atheists to know, but I think the crucial part is a lucid chapter/post on historical method. Ignorance about methodology is a gift to Mythicists and also to other pseudo-historical ranters. Of course, I have the criterion of embarrassment in mind here.
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Mike D
Master of the Arts
Posts: 204
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Post by Mike D on Jun 4, 2013 10:39:35 GMT
Tim,
Sounds like an excellent idea!
Topics it would be worth covering, part I:
1. The existence of Jesus (obviously) 2. The early church - what it believed (particularly looking at the 'borrowing from paganism' idea) 3. The early church - agreement on canonicity and authority 4. The impact of Constantine I on the church - what he did do and what he didn't do
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Post by merkavah12 on Jun 4, 2013 16:57:41 GMT
That'd be great!
I know some friends who have been starved for an early history of Humanism.
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Post by timoneill on Jun 4, 2013 20:14:09 GMT
Tim, Sounds like an excellent idea! Topics it would be worth covering, part I: 1. The existence of Jesus (obviously) 2. The early church - what it believed (particularly looking at the 'borrowing from paganism' idea) 3. The early church - agreement on canonicity and authority 4. The impact of Constantine I on the church - what he did do and what he didn't do I'm going to have to be careful that this idea doesn't get too unweildy. I know I will have to cover the existence of Jesus, though there would be a temptation to try to counter all the Myther arguments about this, which would require a book in its own right. I'd probably be going for an expanded version of my summary of the subject that I posted on Quora. At this stage I'm thinking of something along these lines: 1. An introduction on why I thought the book was required - including my credentials as an atheist and sceptic (since I'll be accused of closet apologetics) and my background (because I don't want to be accused of claiming to be an expert when I am simply an interested amateur). 2. A chapter on the historical method, why history can't be held to the same standards as empirical science, why it is still valid and not wishy-washy subjectivity despite this and how to sort history from pseudo historical crank theories. This is required because so many New Atheist fans come from the sciences and think "If it can't be proven definitively it can be totally rejected and we can believe whatever we want". Which we see from the Mythers all the time. 3. The Whig Fallacy and the dangers of Presentism. This will include something on the difficulties of value judgements about the remote past, given that they did not think like us, and the need for objective analysis of how and why. 4. An Idiot's Guide to the Historical Jesus - this is another chapter which could get out of control, because there is a whole book in there as well. 5. Why the Jesus Myth theory is considered a stinker by actual scholars - ditto. 6. Myths of early Christianity - no Constantine didn't create the Bible via committee, no, he didn't convert out of a cynical attempt to harness religion for his own wicked ends and no, the conversion of the Empire was not some kind of violent political coup where good wise pagans were exterminated in concentration camps (and yes, I've seen that claimed) 7. Christianity didn't cause the "Dark Ages" - Hypatia, Charlie Freeman, Greenblatt, "the stupidest thing on the internet" etc. 8. God and Reason in the Middle Ages - the "Gold of the Egyptians", the Twelfth Century Renaissance, the medieval foundations of science etc. 9. Galileo, Bruno and the associated myths and the Conflict Thesis generally. 10. Maybe something on the Papacy and the Holocaust, though that does feel like quite a jump from Galileo. Maybe something on Darwin and myths associated with Biblical literalism between 9 and 10? Comments? Suggestions?
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Post by unkleE on Jun 4, 2013 22:38:08 GMT
That seems like quite an ambitious list, so I would think you'd have to have a lot of good references to cover the material that you just can't include. Perhaps at a similar level to Galileo Goes to Jail. I do hope you devote several chapters to that most important of historical questions, whether Nazareth suddenly popped into existence some time between 35 CE and 70 CE!! It is worth noting that empirical science doesn't offer "proof" either (only maths and logic do that), but probabilities - often statistical demonstration to a specified confidence limit. And this is especially true of origins science, as this quote from W. Ford Doolittle, Biochemistry Professor, Dalhousie University, Canada) illustrates: So the difference between science and history isn't qualitative but quantitative, and it is a little inconsistent (for christians or atheists) to accept one and not the other. I wish you well. It would be hard work, but also fun, to write a book!
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Post by sankari on Jun 5, 2013 8:35:53 GMT
This sounds excellent Tim. I know some Christians who would benefit from it.
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Post by timoneill on Jun 5, 2013 10:30:25 GMT
This sounds excellent Tim. I know some Christians who would benefit from it. I have a horrible feeling they'll be the only ones who will buy it. I'm going to be self-publishing it because I doubt Prometheus or the American Atheist Press would touch it. Which is rather depressing.
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Post by merkavah12 on Jun 5, 2013 12:23:49 GMT
This sounds excellent Tim. I know some Christians who would benefit from it. I have a horrible feeling they'll be the only ones who will buy it. I'm going to be self-publishing it because I doubt Prometheus or the American Atheist Press would touch it. Which is rather depressing. Don't be so sure, Tim. In my dealings online, I've noted a growing number of Atheists and Agnostics who share your view: that spouting Gibbonian myths does a disservice to the quest for evidence.
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Post by bullpeople on Jun 5, 2013 17:11:02 GMT
The Crusades and the Inquisitions are common examples used to demonstrate how the Church held back society. The Early modern witch craze another, although the myths surrounding the witch craze have a tenancy to be spewed by the neo-pagan sphere of the internet.
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Post by timoneill on Jun 5, 2013 18:32:19 GMT
The Crusades and the Inquisitions are common examples used to demonstrate how the Church held back society. The Early modern witch craze another, although the myths surrounding the witch craze have a tenancy to be spewed by the neo-pagan sphere of the internet. I've had atheists use the "nine million witches" nonsense as evidence of the wickedness of Christianity, so it's not just the Wiccan Witches of the West who bungle that one. I think the Inquisition and the Witch Craze may have to be in there too.
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Post by ignorantianescia on Jun 5, 2013 20:19:50 GMT
Tim, though you're not short of any possible topics, have you considered including a topic that has appeal to atheists? Maybe a polemical epilogue or a chapter on the history of atheism. The advantage of that is that anybody who tries to discredit you by calling you a one-man hit squad for the Vatican, Biola, the Watchtower Society or the Branch Davidians ends up discrediting him/herself to most people.
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labarum
Master of the Arts
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Post by labarum on Jun 6, 2013 17:29:52 GMT
If you are making a series of posts for atheists, it might be better not to tell them what to say about history as much as what NOT to say. Something along the lines of "Things Lots of Atheists Believe about History that are Complete BS." In other words, avoid areas where there are legitimate disagreement and concentrate on things that make you bang your head against the wall.
You might want to leave it an open ended series that you post to on occasion. Start with what annoys you the most and work your way from there. There is no reason to give a definite "x number of posts" since, just when you thought you had heard everything, along comes something even more annoying.
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Post by timoneill on Jun 6, 2013 20:02:30 GMT
Tim, though you're not short of any possible topics, have you considered including a topic that has appeal to atheists? Maybe a polemical epilogue or a chapter on the history of atheism. The advantage of that is that anybody who tries to discredit you by calling you a one-man hit squad for the Vatican, Biola, the Watchtower Society or the Branch Davidians ends up discrediting him/herself to most people. I don't want to get all "New Atheist" (because I'm not one). But I suppose I would finish with a epilogue on why it's as important to be historically literate as it is to be scientifically literate, especially if anyone (eg actual New Atheists) want to use history in debating religious people.
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Post by timoneill on Feb 4, 2014 7:34:35 GMT
I'm trying to keep this project/idea moving, so I've posted an outline of the book's possible contents on /r/badhistory: History for Atheists: How New Atheism Gets History Wrong1. Getting History WrongAtheists, History and Pseudo History History vs Science How is History Studied? Signs of Pseudo History 2. The Historical JesusThe Jesus of History vs the Jesus of Faith Versions of Jesus Pseudo Jesus 3. The Jesus Myth FallaciesDid Jesus Exist? The Kooky Fringe The Problems with Mythicism So Why the Scholarly Consensus? 4. The Bible and Early ChristianityGospels Great and Small The Formation of the Bible The Conversion of Constantine Pagan Persecution? 5. Dark Age Myths and LegendsHypatia and the Great Library Who Caused the Dark Ages? The Age of Light Crusades, Inquisitions and Witches 6. Christianity and Early ScienceWas science "suppressed" in the Middle Ages? The Church and Heliocentrism Bruno and Galileo - the myths of "scientific martyrs" 7. Hitler's Pope?The origins of the myth of "Hitler's Pope" Hitler and Religion The Concordat and the Third Reich "Ally of the Jewish War Criminals" The Vatican and the Holocaust 8. Reason, Faith and History
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