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Post by timoneill on Feb 11, 2014 20:36:42 GMT
My latest loon on Quora is singing the usual tune about the Wicked Old Catholic Church suppressing science in the Middle Ages: www.quora.com/What-would-the-world-look-like-if-Christianity-was-never-invented/answer/John-Stevens-63His comments are turning into a dizzying spiral of nonsense and the usual arguments ("Medieval people didn't invent eyeglasses - the Romans did, so there!"). Probably the weirdest bit was when I've cited multiple modern historians who reject his stuff about the Church suppressing science, and he dismissed them because they are mainly American and British. He is from Belgium and so is insisting that what I'm saying is not accepted in what he calls "Western-Europe". So I gave him the following list of European scholars who disagree with him: Albert Van Helden, Fernand Van Steenberghen, Roland Hissette, Annneliese Meier, A.D Menut, Otto Neugerbaur, Eduard Jan Dijksterhuis or Robert Halleux. He looked up a few of them and dismissed them because they worked in the twentieth century and so are not "modern scholars". So, anyone got any European scholars from the last 20 years I can hit him with? As a monolingual Anglophone my bookshelf only has British and American scholars on it.
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Post by ignorantianescia on Feb 11, 2014 22:30:17 GMT
It may be a bit complex as historians of science focussing on the classical period or the early modern period sooner tend to rely on outdated interpretations of the Middle Ages and so do not give medieval science its due credits.
However, if he is making a claim it isn't well accepted among specialists of medieval natural philosophy in Western Europe (and I have never heard of such an expert position, but I'm not well read in the subject), he should be able to point to articles detailing the pros and cons in this supposed controversy. The onus is on him. If there isn't such literature, it would be rather odd that the Anglo-Saxon and Continental schools are so disjunct.
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Post by wraggy on Feb 12, 2014 5:51:21 GMT
When I read your debates with your more aggressive adversaries, and as the debate progresses, I think to myself, when is he going to pull the old "your just a religious apologist" trick? And John Stevens did not disappoint. I see that he also rejected your European scholars as outdated. As ignorantianescia has said above, the onus is now on him to present credible scholarly evidence.
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Post by himself on Feb 13, 2014 3:47:54 GMT
I've cited multiple modern historians who reject his stuff about the Church suppressing science, and he dismissed them because they are mainly American and British. ... So I gave him the following list of European scholars who disagree with him.... He looked up a few of them and dismissed them because they worked in the twentieth century and so are not "modern scholars". Sort of like "God of the Gaps" arguments, except that it is "Historians of the Gaps." He keeps retreating into smaller and smaller bastions.
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Post by unkleE on Feb 13, 2014 20:53:31 GMT
When I read your debates with your more aggressive adversaries, and as the debate progresses, I think to myself, when is he going to pull the old "your just a religious apologist" trick? And John Stevens did not disappoint. Isn't this such a lesson for us all? How easily we can categorise people and understand them and interpret them according to that categorisation. I'm sure we all do it a little, but it is interesting (and frustrating) when people allow it to intrude so much.
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Post by fortigurn on Feb 14, 2014 7:20:01 GMT
My latest loon on Quora is singing the usual tune about the Wicked Old Catholic Church suppressing science in the Middle Ages: He's an imbecile suffering acute Dunning-Kruger. I have given him a whipping.
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Post by timoneill on Feb 14, 2014 8:20:16 GMT
My latest loon on Quora is singing the usual tune about the Wicked Old Catholic Church suppressing science in the Middle Ages: He's an imbecile suffering acute Dunning-Kruger. I have given him a whipping. And he's replied with his latest carefully hedged request: "Can you provide me with some academic sources by European (preferably continental) authors with a degree in history that were written during the 21st century on the material in question? I'd be glad to check them out. I asked Timmy boy for such sources several times, but he failed to provide any." The "preferably continental" bit is new. I guess that means he thinks that British historians of science all agree with his (mythical) current European ones that the Church suppressed science etc and the revisionism I'm peddling is purely American. He knows he's right because he lives in Belgium, you see, where knowledge of the backwardness of the Middle Ages is innate. He's mentioned that he has Asperger's (he claims this makes him immune to bias - like a super power!) Is this kind of obsessive compulsion to not back down a symptom of that condition? Anyone know?
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Post by ignorantianescia on Feb 14, 2014 16:10:46 GMT
He's mentioned that he has Asperger's (he claims this makes him immune to bias - like a super power!) Is this kind of obsessive compulsion to not back down a symptom of that condition? Anyone know? I've only known one person with Asperger's, but he wasn't exactly headstrong. Of course, fascinations/obsessions are part of the condition and maybe he has an obsession related to science or the Roman Catholic Church. But the most relevant condition here may be his being from Belgium. No that's not a Dutch joke on Belgians, there's actually a still very strong anticlerical sentiment among non-religious Belgians. A strong belief in Roman Catholic obscurantism on basically any subject is pretty much an unassailable article of faith in those sectors (humanism, freethinker organisations and Freemasonry are well-known bulwarks of the sentiment).
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Post by timoneill on Feb 14, 2014 19:53:08 GMT
He's mentioned that he has Asperger's (he claims this makes him immune to bias - like a super power!) Is this kind of obsessive compulsion to not back down a symptom of that condition? Anyone know? I've only known one person with Asperger's, but he wasn't exactly headstrong. Of course, fascinations/obsessions are part of the condition and maybe he has an obsession related to science or the Roman Catholic Church. But the most relevant condition here may be his being from Belgium. No that's not a Dutch joke on Belgians, there's actually a still very strong anticlerical sentiment among non-religious Belgians. A strong belief in Roman Catholic obscurantism on basically any subject is pretty much an unassailable article of faith in those sectors (humanism, freethinker organisations and Freemasonry are well-known bulwarks of the sentiment). Well, whatever his problem is, he's now blocked me from replying to his posts or comments. That's a great way to get the last word, but not a great indicator of confidence in his position.
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Post by fortigurn on Feb 15, 2014 5:11:17 GMT
He's an imbecile suffering acute Dunning-Kruger. I have given him a whipping. And he's replied with his latest carefully hedged request: I followed up relentlessly until he finally ran away and refused to respond to any more of my posts. I have no doubt that his Asperger's is self-diagnosed (and therefore completely false), just like his claim to be a polymath. He's delusional, and just wants to feel special.
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Post by wraggy on Feb 16, 2014 4:16:24 GMT
I cannot find either Tim's or Fortigurn's comments. They seem to have been deleted. Can anyone tell me where the comments have gone? Or is this a case of censorship by Mr.Stevens?
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Post by timoneill on Feb 16, 2014 6:30:18 GMT
I cannot find either Tim's or Fortigurn's comments. They seem to have been deleted. Can anyone tell me where the comments have gone? Or is this a case of censorship by Mr.Stevens? He's deleted all the comments and blocked me from commenting on any of his Quora answers again. I'm assuming he blocked Fortigurn and Mike Flynn as well. Basically, he's flounced off to sulk.
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Post by wraggy on Feb 17, 2014 2:04:00 GMT
I cannot find either Tim's or Fortigurn's comments. They seem to have been deleted. Can anyone tell me where the comments have gone? Or is this a case of censorship by Mr.Stevens? He's deleted all the comments and blocked me from commenting on any of his Quora answers again. I'm assuming he blocked Fortigurn and Mike Flynn as well. Basically, he's flounced off to sulk. Ian Paul Wragg John M Stevens Ian Paul Wragg John M Stevens I think that this bloke has forgotten to take his medication
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Post by fortigurn on Feb 17, 2014 2:33:02 GMT
Tell him I have our entire conversation documented, and I can bring it back any time he wants.
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Post by wraggy on Feb 17, 2014 2:35:43 GMT
I will do that. I never got to see your response.
Tis done.
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