The Church Suppressed Science blah blah blah ...

[timoneill]

My latest loon on Quora is singing the usual tune about the Wicked Old Catholic Church suppressing science in the Middle Ages:

www.quora.com/What-would-the-world-look-like-if-Christianity-was-never-invented/answer/John-Stevens-63

His comments are turning into a dizzying spiral of nonsense and the usual arguments ("Medieval people didn't invent eyeglasses - the Romans did, so there!"). Probably the weirdest bit was when I've cited multiple modern historians who reject his stuff about the Church suppressing science, and he dismissed them because they are mainly American and British. He is from Belgium and so is insisting that what I'm saying is not accepted in what he calls "Western-Europe". So I gave him the following list of European scholars who disagree with him: Albert Van Helden, Fernand Van Steenberghen, Roland Hissette, Annneliese Meier, A.D Menut, Otto Neugerbaur, Eduard Jan Dijksterhuis or Robert Halleux. He looked up a few of them and dismissed them because they worked in the twentieth century and so are not "modern scholars".

So, anyone got any European scholars from the last 20 years I can hit him with? As a monolingual Anglophone my bookshelf only has British and American scholars on it.

[ignorantianescia]

It may be a bit complex as historians of science focussing on the classical period or the early modern period sooner tend to rely on outdated interpretations of the Middle Ages and so do not give medieval science its due credits.

However, if he is making a claim it isn't well accepted among specialists of medieval natural philosophy in Western Europe (and I have never heard of such an expert position, but I'm not well read in the subject), he should be able to point to articles detailing the pros and cons in this supposed controversy. The onus is on him. If there isn't such literature, it would be rather odd that the Anglo-Saxon and Continental schools are so disjunct.

[wraggy]

Feb 12, 2014 5:37:29 GMT wraggy said:

John Stevens said:

Also, you have the words "Christian apologist" written all over you. You may claim to be an Atheist historian, but there are quite a few things about your posts that suggest otherwise.

When I read your debates with your more aggressive adversaries, and as the debate progresses, I think to myself, when is he going to pull the old "your just a religious apologist" trick? And John Stevens did not disappoint.

I see that he also rejected your European scholars as outdated. As ignorantianescia has said above, the onus is now on him to present credible scholarly evidence.

[himself]

Feb 11, 2014 20:36:42 GMT timoneill said:

I've cited multiple modern historians who reject his stuff about the Church suppressing science, and he dismissed them because they are mainly American and British. ... So I gave him the following list of European scholars who disagree with him.... He looked up a few of them and dismissed them because they worked in the twentieth century and so are not "modern scholars".

Sort of like "God of the Gaps" arguments, except that it is "Historians of the Gaps." He keeps retreating into smaller and smaller bastions.

[unkleE]

Feb 12, 2014 5:51:21 GMT wraggy said:

Feb 12, 2014 5:37:29 GMT wraggy said:

John Stevens said:

When I read your debates with your more aggressive adversaries, and as the debate progresses, I think to myself, when is he going to pull the old "your just a religious apologist" trick? And John Stevens did not disappoint.

Isn't this such a lesson for us all? How easily we can categorise people and understand them and interpret them according to that categorisation. I'm sure we all do it a little, but it is interesting (and frustrating) when people allow it to intrude so much.

[fortigurn]

Feb 11, 2014 20:36:42 GMT timoneill said:

My latest loon on Quora is singing the usual tune about the Wicked Old Catholic Church suppressing science in the Middle Ages:

He's an imbecile suffering acute Dunning-Kruger. I have given him a whipping.

[timoneill]

Feb 14, 2014 7:20:01 GMT fortigurn said:

Feb 11, 2014 20:36:42 GMT timoneill said:

My latest loon on Quora is singing the usual tune about the Wicked Old Catholic Church suppressing science in the Middle Ages:

He's an imbecile suffering acute Dunning-Kruger. I have given him a whipping.

And he's replied with his latest carefully hedged request:

"Can you provide me with some academic sources by European (preferably continental) authors with a degree in history that were written during the 21st century on the material in question? I'd be glad to check them out. I asked Timmy boy for such sources several times, but he failed to provide any."

The "preferably continental" bit is new. I guess that means he thinks that British historians of science all agree with his (mythical) current European ones that the Church suppressed science etc and the revisionism I'm peddling is purely American. He knows he's right because he lives in Belgium, you see, where knowledge of the backwardness of the Middle Ages is innate.

He's mentioned that he has Asperger's (he claims this makes him immune to bias - like a super power!) Is this kind of obsessive compulsion to not back down a symptom of that condition? Anyone know?

[ignorantianescia]

Feb 14, 2014 8:20:16 GMT timoneill said:

He's mentioned that he has Asperger's (he claims this makes him immune to bias - like a super power!) Is this kind of obsessive compulsion to not back down a symptom of that condition? Anyone know?

I've only known one person with Asperger's, but he wasn't exactly headstrong. Of course, fascinations/obsessions are part of the condition and maybe he has an obsession related to science or the Roman Catholic Church.

But the most relevant condition here may be his being from Belgium. No that's not a Dutch joke on Belgians, there's actually a still very strong anticlerical sentiment among non-religious Belgians. A strong belief in Roman Catholic obscurantism on basically any subject is pretty much an unassailable article of faith in those sectors (humanism, freethinker organisations and Freemasonry are well-known bulwarks of the sentiment).

[timoneill]

Feb 14, 2014 16:10:46 GMT ignorantianescia said:

Feb 14, 2014 8:20:16 GMT timoneill said:

He's mentioned that he has Asperger's (he claims this makes him immune to bias - like a super power!) Is this kind of obsessive compulsion to not back down a symptom of that condition? Anyone know?

I've only known one person with Asperger's, but he wasn't exactly headstrong. Of course, fascinations/obsessions are part of the condition and maybe he has an obsession related to science or the Roman Catholic Church.

But the most relevant condition here may be his being from Belgium. No that's not a Dutch joke on Belgians, there's actually a still very strong anticlerical sentiment among non-religious Belgians. A strong belief in Roman Catholic obscurantism on basically any subject is pretty much an unassailable article of faith in those sectors (humanism, freethinker organisations and Freemasonry are well-known bulwarks of the sentiment).

Well, whatever his problem is, he's now blocked me from replying to his posts or comments. That's a great way to get the last word, but not a great indicator of confidence in his position.

[fortigurn]

Feb 14, 2014 8:20:16 GMT timoneill said:

Feb 14, 2014 7:20:01 GMT fortigurn said:

He's an imbecile suffering acute Dunning-Kruger. I have given him a whipping.

And he's replied with his latest carefully hedged request:

I followed up relentlessly until he finally ran away and refused to respond to any more of my posts.

He's mentioned that he has Asperger's (he claims this makes him immune to bias - like a super power!) Is this kind of obsessive compulsion to not back down a symptom of that condition? Anyone know?

I have no doubt that his Asperger's is self-diagnosed (and therefore completely false), just like his claim to be a polymath. He's delusional, and just wants to feel special.

[wraggy]

I cannot find either Tim's or Fortigurn's comments. They seem to have been deleted. Can anyone tell me where the comments have gone? Or is this a case of censorship by Mr.Stevens?

[timoneill]

Feb 16, 2014 4:16:24 GMT wraggy said:

I cannot find either Tim's or Fortigurn's comments. They seem to have been deleted. Can anyone tell me where the comments have gone? Or is this a case of censorship by Mr.Stevens?

He's deleted all the comments and blocked me from commenting on any of his Quora answers again. I'm assuming he blocked Fortigurn and Mike Flynn as well. Basically, he's flounced off to sulk.

[wraggy]

Feb 16, 2014 6:30:18 GMT timoneill said:

Feb 16, 2014 4:16:24 GMT wraggy said:

I cannot find either Tim's or Fortigurn's comments. They seem to have been deleted. Can anyone tell me where the comments have gone? Or is this a case of censorship by Mr.Stevens?

He's deleted all the comments and blocked me from commenting on any of his Quora answers again. I'm assuming he blocked Fortigurn and Mike Flynn as well. Basically, he's flounced off to sulk.

Ian Paul Wragg

It sounds more like an attempt to avoid being challenged on your ideas.

It also appears that opposing comments have been removed. Censorship too.

Not exactly what I would expect from someone claiming to have an open mind.

John M Stevens said "Having said that, I try to stay openminded to evidence I may have missed. The moment you close your mind to new evidence, that's the moment you stop thinking."

John M Stevens

I just blocked two people : Timmy boy and his lapdog Jonathan Burke.

It seems that this doesn't just result in them not being able to respond to my comments but their responses disappearing entirely.

This was not my intent. As I was pretty much "pwning" these guys, I would have preferred the entire debate to remain visible.

Ian Paul Wragg

Simply unblock them and allow the debate.

John M Stevens

I did allow the debate.

Problem is :

Timmy boy barely engages in actual debate. Most of his long rants consist of personal attacks and don't address any of the arguments brought forward.
Whenever Timmy boy does engage in actual debate, his arguments are full of logical fallacies, falsehoods and other holes that are pretty easily refuted.
Timmy boy also has the tendency to ignore any argument he doesn't like, to not answer questions that were asked and all that in the most condescending, arrogant tone.
Jonathan Burke didn't even pretend to be a scholar. He didn't even pretend he had a capacity for reason. All he did was suggest a couple of sources I did not consider credible by any standard and then whine like a little school girl about how unreasonable it was that I have higher standards.
I don't have the time to continue debunking Timmy boy's nonsense nor his lapdog Jonathan. I actually have a life, you know... which I've been neglecting a bit lately, mostly due to time spent on Quora... and of which too much was going to Timmy boy alone...
I could just ignore Timmy boy and Jonathan, but that might give the impression that I can't debunk their arguments. I'm sorry, but I can. I did... and it wasn't even that hard.
I would really love to bring back the entire discussion between Timmy boy and myself if I could do so without unblocking him. That way, anyone could judge for themselves if Timmy boy actually has a point or whether I did in fact "pwn his @$$ bigtime", as the kids say these days
If you guys are really interested in what I have to say about medieval science, I could write some articles on Medium, with source references and all... where I will address Timmy boy's position as detailed as I can.


There's a general rule in internet communication that I usually don't apply and that I didn't apply for too long here (because I do believe in free speech rather than censorship even for the most offensive brats), but even I have my limits when it comes to tolerating trolls... especially when I have a life to attend to and a girlfriend who longs for some more attention with her big brown puppy dog eyes...

I think that this bloke has forgotten to take his medication

[fortigurn]

Tell him I have our entire conversation documented, and I can bring it back any time he wants.

[wraggy]

I will do that. I never got to see your response.

Tis done.