jagella
Bachelor of the Arts
Posts: 86
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Post by jagella on Nov 11, 2017 15:13:40 GMT
I've read the above phrase many times in online forums. The context of this quotation is very often a response to some tough scrutiny I have made of Christianity. For example, years ago I was discussing the reality of death and that nobody, including Christians, can escape it. Another member there reprimanded me saying I must allow Christians to believe what they wish. He finished his tirade with, you guessed it, "...and I'm an atheist!" His response to my criticism of Christianity is a bit off-base considering that I was not forcing anybody to give up their cherished beliefs. I was just telling the truth.
Much more recently I was reading Robert Price's The Christ Myth Theory and its Problems. Price discusses the phenomenon of atheists reacting very negatively to the notion that Jesus did not exist. On page 421 he says:
He writes on page 422:
I think Price might be right. I'd add that many atheists might find a "real" Jesus to be very useful for other reasons. Accepting a Jesus divested of his divinity and magical powers allows one to fit in with the consensus. In so doing, one's ideas about Jesus may be more readily accepted than completely rejecting his hoped-for reality. (It appears to be a case of group think.) After all, it's tough enough from a social perspective to reject the god of Christianity. To reject even the hope of a real Jesus makes acceptance that much tougher.
So what are some other reasons that atheists might "want Jesus"?
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Post by sandwiches on Nov 11, 2017 17:32:52 GMT
Phenomenon? They judge according to the evidence.
by 'want' I am guessing you mean 'recognise that Jesus existed'. They judge according to the evidence.
Your horse is well dead. Stop flogging it.
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jagella
Bachelor of the Arts
Posts: 86
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Post by jagella on Nov 11, 2017 18:38:09 GMT
I need to point out that I'm NOT looking to discuss the historicity of Jesus on this thread. If you wish to discuss that topic, then please address it on the other thread. They judge according to the evidence. I'm an atheist, so do I judge Jesus purely "according to the evidence"? Personally, I "want Jesus" because I find the issues surrounding him to be very interesting especially the fervor that attends belief in him. By "want Jesus" I'm referring to any beliefs or activities that might be based in the figure of Jesus. Some atheists, for example, might see Jesus as a good moral teacher and want to live by the moral teachings that are ascribed to him.
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Post by sandwiches on Nov 11, 2017 19:00:17 GMT
Re your quote from Price: I would only quibble with the words 'never' and 'assume'. If it were rephrased as 'those who, .. having closely examined the theory, 'conclude' it is a crackpot idea like Holocaust Denial or disbelief in the moon landing' I would endorse it. As to Price generally - see Casey on the Jesus mythicists: rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/the-jesus-process-maurice-casey/Price is alone among mythicists in that there is no doubt that he was a qualified New Testament scholar. He therefore bears a most heavy responsibility for the falsehoods which he has promoted.Casey concludes: It follows that Price has not made good or reasonable use of the New Testament qualifications which he once obtained. The results of his work are no better than those of more obviously ignorant mythicists.
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Post by timoneill on Nov 11, 2017 20:41:22 GMT
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jagella
Bachelor of the Arts
Posts: 86
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Post by jagella on Nov 11, 2017 21:36:04 GMT
Re your quote from Price: I would only quibble with the words 'never' and 'assume'. If it were rephrased as 'those who, .. having closely examined the theory, 'conclude' it is a crackpot idea like Holocaust Denial or disbelief in the moon landing' I would endorse it. As to Price generally - see Casey on the Jesus mythicists: rjosephhoffmann.wordpress.com/2012/05/22/the-jesus-process-maurice-casey/Price is alone among mythicists in that there is no doubt that he was a qualified New Testament scholar. He therefore bears a most heavy responsibility for the falsehoods which he has promoted.Casey concludes: It follows that Price has not made good or reasonable use of the New Testament qualifications which he once obtained. The results of his work are no better than those of more obviously ignorant mythicists.Please discuss the historicity of Jesus on the other thread, Jesus is a myth! (Sort of) On this thread I'd like to discuss why some atheists seem to want Jesus in some way.
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kj
Clerk
Posts: 9
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Post by kj on Nov 11, 2017 22:31:02 GMT
Please discuss the historicity of Jesus on the other thread, Jesus is a myth! (Sort of) On this thread I'd like to discuss why some atheists seem to want Jesus in some way. Then find some who "want Jesus" and ask them why. You've been shown repeatedly why many conclude there was a historical Jesus- you choose to cling to people whose ideas confirm your biases and reject the rest. Now you come in quoting Price and his notion that there is some deep psychological need for a historical Jesus among even atheists who, after examining the evidence, conclude it is most likely Jesus existed. This type of risible statement has no evidence in its support. You demonstrate no willingness to engage the evidence: despite your repeated protestations to the contrary, you consistently fall back on "but that evidence isn't sufficient." When people challenged Acharya S and her analysis, you accused them of sexism. When pointed to Tim's summary of the evidence, you essentially accused him of academic fraud- claiming degrees he didn't have. Now, in the continued delusion that the only reason people might believe in a historical Jesus is some sort of psychology-based denial, you claim to want a discussion of why atheists seem to want Jesus. You have presented no atheists who "want Jesus." I am certain that there are atheists who think they would be happier if they believed in God, Christian or otherwise, but cannot reconcile that with other things they believe. I do not believe that that wish makes them slant the evidence for a historical Jesus. I do not know if any of the atheists who frequent this site are even in that category. I am equally certain that there are atheists who are afraid that their philosophy is challenged by the mere existence of a first-century Galilean preacher-activist who got himself executed by the Romans- we've seen evidence of their behavior in the other thread. The more you go on, the more you remind me of the students who watch the TV shows and want to muse about quantum computers and teleportation, but won't open their textbooks and understand the basic notions of atomic structure. You need to master the basics before you can lead the next revolution in our understanding. It's not that you're incapable of understanding, but you're unwilling to do the legwork, and think that you can start in the advanced section. You cannot. There is no substitute for actually building the foundational knowledge you need.
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Post by peteri on Nov 11, 2017 22:31:24 GMT
Please discuss the historicity of Jesus on the other thread, Jesus is a myth! (Sort of) On this thread I'd like to discuss why some atheists seem to want Jesus in some way. To speculate on someone's reasons for believing something that is established as false is always precarious - even a well educated guess on motive can easily miss the target. But to speculate this way about why someone agrees with the consensus of expert opinion is purest lunacy - or else it is a rhetorical trick -> there are bad reasons why someone might believe X therefore the reasons for believing X are bad. This is not a convincing argument when stated outright, but it is often the reason why people speculate on motives for beliefs.
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Post by gakuseidon on Nov 11, 2017 22:34:48 GMT
By "want Jesus" I'm referring to any beliefs or activities that might be based in the figure of Jesus... On this thread I'd like to discuss why some atheists seem to want Jesus in some way. Can I ask you to explain why you yourself want Jesus in some way? By "want Jesus" I'm referring to being open-minded on whether Jesus existed or not. Please answer using "I want Jesus in some way because..." Thank you. Gaslighting... no longer just for illumination!
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Post by timoneill on Nov 11, 2017 23:45:59 GMT
[Please discuss the historicity of Jesus on the other thread, Jesus is a myth! (Sort of) Take your own advice. You have unfinished business there. Answer the question or go away.
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jagella
Bachelor of the Arts
Posts: 86
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Post by jagella on Nov 12, 2017 1:35:47 GMT
By "want Jesus" I'm referring to any beliefs or activities that might be based in the figure of Jesus... On this thread I'd like to discuss why some atheists seem to want Jesus in some way. Can I ask you to explain why you yourself want Jesus in some way? By "want Jesus" I'm referring to being open-minded on whether Jesus existed or not. Please answer using "I want Jesus in some way because..." Thank you. Gaslighting... no longer just for illumination! Personally, I "want Jesus" because I find the issues surrounding him to be very interesting especially the fervor that attends belief in him.
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jagella
Bachelor of the Arts
Posts: 86
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Post by jagella on Nov 12, 2017 2:30:19 GMT
You have presented no atheists who "want Jesus." I posted the same OP in another forum. One of the atheists there had this to say: I'm not sure if he divulged why he may want Jesus, but at least he was civil.
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Post by gakuseidon on Nov 12, 2017 12:57:01 GMT
Personally, I "want Jesus" because I find the issues surrounding him to be very interesting especially the fervor that attends belief in him. Why are you using quote marks around "want Jesus" in your response, when you didn't in the OP? Would you concede that the quote marks should have been used in the OP as well? To bring my point to a close: your question in the OP is disingenuous, and, by your use of quote marks above, I suspect you know it. To define "want Jesus" in the way you did is mischievous. You could have EASILY worded it in some other, more neutral, way, to avoid the implications of having an atheist say they "want Jesus". Anyway, I'd also like to see your response to Tim's question on the other thread.
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jagella
Bachelor of the Arts
Posts: 86
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Post by jagella on Nov 12, 2017 16:22:37 GMT
Why are you using quote marks around "want Jesus" in your response, when you didn't in the OP? Would you concede that the quote marks should have been used in the OP as well? I do concede your point. I should have placed them there. I edited the OP to include the quotation marks. It now reads: "want Jesus" I think you may be reading too much into the OP. I promise not to try to trap anybody in their words. After all, I'm an atheist, and I "want Jesus" for my own reasons. In any case, my motive in asking why some atheists "want Jesus" is irrelevant to the issue. I try not to encourage trolling by responding to it. You are welcome to ask any question you wish providing that you are polite and ask that question on the appropriate thread.
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Post by timoneill on Nov 12, 2017 20:07:17 GMT
I try not to encourage trolling by responding to it. You are welcome to ask any question you wish providing that you are polite and ask that question on the appropriate thread. It's ironic that you're accusing others of "trolling". You come here deliberately posting stuff that you know will annoy people, misrepresenting and twisting other people's arguments ("so your argument is that Jesus existed because the Bible says so?") and dodging anything you find a little difficult. And now you've been cornered on the other thread because you know you have to admit the argument you're making is patently wrong and you're squealing "troll" to try to wriggle away. Pathetic. You are the troll here sonny. And Jamie has responded to you there making exactly the same arguments I'm making about Jesus' small time "fame", yet you're not answering him either. Why is that, troll?
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