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Post by pilgrimtom on Jan 1, 2009 1:28:00 GMT
The Biblical story "Tower of Babel" is likely most often considered in a historical context ... whether one considers the story myth or fact.
Perhaps its' message is 'prophetic' ... with the Libraries of Alexandria being one of the more significant manifestations of the 'message' ... basically mankind's' progressive attempts to synthesize knowledge in an effort to understand or control mankind and nature.
... and perhaps the World Wide Web is yet another significant manifestation of the 'message' ... significant in that its' geographic and language scope is virtually global. I found the name for the language translator on Alta vista intriguing .." Babel".
Are the suggested parallels meaningful?
If so ... will the fate of the WWW and mankind parallel that of the tower and the Alexandrian libraries?
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Post by jamierobertson on Jan 1, 2009 14:34:59 GMT
Er... probably not, IMO. The problem with the folk at Babel wasn't their chase for knowledge or control per se (God didn't tell Adam in the garden to lie back and let the world run itself!!!). The people of Babel were basically challenging God and, in a sense, trying take his place - in the ANE that was an honour challenge that God responded to appropriately. Unless the existence of the WWW can be seen as a similar "raised single finger" to God, I don't see any major smiting on the horizon.
On a side note (and perhaps one more relevant to the frequenters of this forum) - are you implying that the library at Alexandria was destroyed as a result of Christian belief?
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Post by pilgrimtom on Jan 1, 2009 19:44:05 GMT
The people of Babel were basically challenging God and, in a sense, trying take his place
Perhaps what you refer to as challenging God can be expressed by the notion “pursuit of knowledge” ... the stories of God being fabricated to cover up human ignorance ... and the need for this notion of God diminishes proportionately with new knowledge ... in time knowledge completely erasing the need for God ... Unless the existence of the WWW can be seen as a similar "raised single finger" to God
Today we often hear the expressions “we live in a knowledge society” … “knowledge is currency” … perhaps it has always been the case.
Science = knowledge = power = $$$ = control … all antithetical to the notion of God
In Genesis we read “Do not eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil”
IMO all knowledge is good … problems seem to occur in the use/application of knowledge … seems humans are not equipped to share knowledge for the common good … seems knowledge has always been exploited for personal advantage … ie superiority/control over our neighbor
are you implying that the library at Alexandria was destroyed as a result of Christian belief?
IMO Christian leaders (as with other religions) have always perpetuated the use/control of knowledge to manage/exploit the masses… ie filter/control the dissemination of knowledge for personal advantage/control.
Perhaps this is an example of the notion of yin yang … attempts to share knowledge for the common good will be met with counter efforts of equal or greater force ... thus the destruction of the libraries.
St Augustine wrote 1,600 years ago … “Oh you torrent of human custom! Who can stand against you?”
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Post by jamierobertson on Jan 2, 2009 17:55:34 GMT
Perhaps what you refer to as challenging God can be expressed by the notion “pursuit of knowledge”
Not really, no. Like I said, earlier in Genesis God tells the humans to go and "master" the land they are living in; but they do so whilst still honouring God. The Babel folk had no time for being subservient, and are building an enormous tower because it makes them look good. Control itself is not necessarily a bad thing, unless accompanied by a desire to get rid of God.
and the need for this notion of God diminishes proportionately with new knowledge
As James H can tell you, thousands of scientists throughout the ages would strongly disagree with you.
seems knowledge has always been exploited for personal advantage
Often has, and it has also often been used to glorify God and make life better for people. The problem lies with us, not knowledge.
Christian leaders (as with other religions) have always perpetuated the use/control of knowledge to manage/exploit the masses
So, that's a yes then. Glad we cleared that up, amongst the vague, new-agey ramblings...
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Post by humphreyclarke on Jan 2, 2009 18:40:17 GMT
What I tend to disagree with is the idea that the internet is going to be the great engine of enlightenment which Dennett et al seem to suggest it is going to be. So far a vast amount of very good information has been put up but people don't seem to be reading it, myths are being perpetuated and pseudo-science and pseudo-history are running rampant. I still see it as an overwhelmingly positive advance but one has to be realistic.
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Post by pilgrimtom on Jan 3, 2009 0:27:34 GMT
Jamie ... seems I have offended you … I hope my offense is limited to my ignorance of “forum protocol”
I feel no compulsion to defend my thoughts … they are only thoughts that floated around in my mind from time to time … and perhaps I shouldn’t be intruding in this forum.
That said I would like to leave you with one more bit of rambling …
In a business situation many years ago someone made the following statement … “If you cut a loaf of bread in half you still have a loaf of bread (save for the few crumbs lying on the cutting surface) If you cut a baby in half you no longer have a living baby.”
Perhaps this statement is rooted in the Biblical story illustrating the wisdom of Solomon.
From time to time I see a parallel in the above statement and the “separation of state and church” … seems to me our body and soul are inseparable.
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Post by pilgrimtom on Jan 3, 2009 0:36:52 GMT
Humphrey I subscribe to your feeling that the internet is no engine or window to “enlightenment”
What strikes me as worthy of serious contemplation is for the first time in human history one can connect/communicate with virtually anyone in the world … language and geographical separation are no longer barriers. For me this advance in technology is mind-boggling
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Post by jamierobertson on Jan 5, 2009 23:22:19 GMT
Jamie ... seems I have offended you … I hope my offense is limited to my ignorance of “forum protocol” No offense taken, and you will always be welcome at this forum regardless of your beliefs; it just seems (from where I'm standing) that you've: a) subscribed to a popular vision of history that is very much out of sync with the evidence (I refer to the Christian destruction of the Library) b) decided to ramble on a bit about completely unconnected events, like Solomon's wisdom, my toast in the morning and the seperation of church and state. How on earth is one supposed to respond to a point that barely makes sense??? |
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