miracles and other phenomenon

[element771]

Hi,

First just wanted to say that I am enjoying posting on a forum that actively deals with science and religion in a civilized way.

Anyway.....

I was wondering if you guys / girls could give your opinions on a couple of issues that I have been pondering as of late.

1. Miracles - There are many claims of miraculous healing and events even today. How do you guys deal with them? Being a science driven type of person, I find them hard to believe simply because often times N=1. Also, I am skeptical more of people lying and deceiving than I am of actual miracles occurring.

2. Exorcism - I am of two minds on the topic. Part of me wants more evidence and thinks that some of the particpants of the exorcisms can be exagerating, mistaken, or making up events in order to make a theological point (the point being that they feel that they need to make the public fear evil and they should do this by any means possible including making false / exagerated statements).

On the other hand, I find that a lot of the testimonies are too readily dismissed by a lot of skeptics. Two books on the subject by Gabrielle Amorth and Malachi Martin come to mind. If you read the criticisms, they often use ad hom attacks in order to discredit the authors of the testimonies. Unfortunately these attacks do a good job of poisoning the well...at least enough to make me doubt their authenticity.

www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=58835

Dr. Richard E. Gallagher documents an exorcism. This guy is a professional with a lot to loose....why would he do this if it were not legit?

3. Stigmata - Again same with exorcism. There are a lot of claims that seem pretty spectacular but I still wonder if they are believable.

4. Near Death Experiences - Dr. Gary Habermas seems to have documented a lot of veridical cases that seem to support the notion of life after death. Credibility is once again the key. The evidence is there but what do you make of it.

I have seen a lot of ultra-skeptics that shrug these cases and evidence off like it was nothing. Can we do that with every case?

All of these mentioned above are reported by external witnesses that have been supposedly corroborated. It is not like these are all internal constructs of an individuals imagination.

Thanks for the thoughts.

[bjorn]

Not time for a long answer here, however perhaps some book recommendations may be in order?

Miracles by C.S. Lewis (of course) - www.amazon.com/Miracles-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060653019/

In Defense of Miracles: A Comprehensive Case for God's Actions in History, edited by R. Douglas Geivett and Gary R. Habermas - www.amazon.com/Defense-Miracles-Comprehensive-Actions-History/dp/0830815287/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books

Then a quick response to your questions:

1. Miracles needs more than one witness - and these have to be credible. It also helps if the miracle in question is more than someone showing off or a standard magician's trick (like bending spoons).

2. Alleged Exorcisms are in general to be distrusted. Still it may be something in the less sensational ones. And some of them seems to meet the criteria above,

3. I have never trusted stigmatas (but then I am no Catholic). They are too easily faked or perhaps possible to produce by some kind of psychosomatic. However there are some alternative views in Apparitions, Healings, and Weeping Madonnas: Christianity and the Paranormal by Lisa J. Schwebel www.amazon.com/Apparitions-Healings-Weeping-Madonnas-Christianity/dp/0809142236/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books

4. NDE does have too many alternative explanations.

[unkleE]

I think we need two separate approaches to miracles.

If we are attempting to use miracles as an apologetic, or to answer critical questions from unbelievers, we need to focus on the many claims of miracles. It is hard to defend an individual miracle to someone who wants not to believe, but it is also hard for them to claim that they have investigated the mass of miracle claims and know them all to be fraudulent or mistaken. (Well, it isn't hard for them to do it, but it isn't true.) The Catholic Church has a medical commission that has investigated alleged miracles at Lourdes, and concluded that a small number of them can be verified. The World Christian Doctors Network has a website which details miracle claims with evidence. They may not all be valid, but it is hard to argue that all of them are mistaken.

But in our personal lives, we can be more open and less judgmental. If we pray, why shouldn't God do a miracle? For that matter, why should he? Mostly we don't know, though sometimes it seems pretty clear. Alison Morgan's wonderful book "The Wild Gospel" is her take on christianity and postmodern culture. It is a fine balance of intellect, faith and realism, and she heads up a prayer counselling ministry in her church which has seen many apparently miraculous answers to prayer that seem believable to me (and I am mostly sceptical about such stories). I would guess that most of us have a story somewhere in our lives. We should be thankful to God for apparently miraculous outcomes - whether they are real interventions by God or not, if they are good things then surely he was the ultimate author?

[bjorn]

Aug 5, 2008 21:06:44 GMT bjorn said:

(like bending sthingys)

Sorry, I have now five times written s p o o n s (in one word), however it turns up as stinghys each time...?!

Must be a miracle.

[Mike D]

I think my take on most of the tales that reach my ears is agnostic - I don't believe the accounts, but I don't actively disbelieve them - though verging on the sceptical - it seems more likely that someone has made a mistake, told a tall tale or something similar than that a genuine miracle has occurred. However, I see probability as a better guide to populations than it is to individuals.

1. Miracles - I believe it possible that miracles could occur today and people I know have reported some fairly remarkable answers to prayer. However, I wasn't there, I didn't witness the events claimed, so I can neither say that they did happen or that they didn't.

2. Exorcisms - I know one person, someone who has qualifications in psychology, who claims to have come across a person who was demon-possessed whose symptoms were almost totally relieved by prayer. I get all kinds of warning bells about the subject in my head, but I have no reason to disbelieve this person: however, given that I have not seen this for myself, I remain agnostic.

3. Stigmata - no real view, the existence of stigmata or lack thereof does not play a strong part in my worldview. It seems at least possible that the phenomenon is real, but it also seems possible (to me, at any rate) that it could be psychosomatic.

4. NDEs - I'm not convinced by this one - the phenomenon seems real enough, but I'm not convinced that anything is happeneing beyond brain chemistry.

Mike