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Post by noons on Feb 12, 2011 3:59:32 GMT
Seriously, calling Carrier and the New Atheists their "ideological descendants" is needlessly inflammatory and just plain wrong. Carrier, Dawkins etc. are no more the ideological descendants of people like Josef Stalin than you or I are the ideological descendants of the inquisition.
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Post by krkey1 on Feb 12, 2011 4:13:34 GMT
At least in the US a lot of Atheist are leftist and the left has a lot of it's origins in communism from the 1930s. I honestly see little difference between Neo Atheists and such movements as the Jacobins or the Communist. I have little doubt remaining that if Dawkins and his ilk ever gained power you would have genocide against all religious people. After all this crowd believes religious people are inferior to atheist and preventing an atheistic utopia from being formed, what is a little bloodshed in order to get utopia after all.
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Post by elephantchang51 on Feb 12, 2011 6:51:07 GMT
Throughout history,religious people have persecuted and murdered religious people.The history of mankind is one of conflict,people will always find reasons to kill each other.Does anyone think that without Communism or atheism there wouldn't have been genocide in the 20th century,given the technological advances of the era?We just became more efficient at killing each other,period.
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Post by krkey1 on Feb 12, 2011 7:11:31 GMT
Well except for the Nazis elephant who would the suspects be. However when Atheists killed they did it in a far more systematic and efficient way then any group in history with the exception of the Nazis. Even the most brutal of Modern Muslim states are no where near as brutal as atheistic regimes.
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Post by elephantchang51 on Feb 12, 2011 7:30:02 GMT
When you say atheistic regimes you presumably mean communist regimes?Are you confident theocracies are less brutal?Why is the free world terrified about Iran having nuclear weapons?The problem is people,human nature,not simply ideology.
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Post by krkey1 on Feb 12, 2011 16:44:58 GMT
All Communist regimes are atheistic regimes Elephant, there is simply no other type. The world is terrified because Iran should not have nuclear weapons ( thought in all fairness the only people they could nuke would be their fellow Muslims. I will explain that one if you want me to). However even the worse Muslim theocracies does not have gulags with a 40% kill rate.
Atheist have a lot to explain when it comes to Communism if they want current thinker to believe they are in fact morally superior to theist, as many of them like to claim.
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Post by gymnopodie on Feb 12, 2011 19:13:07 GMT
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Post by krkey1 on Feb 12, 2011 20:08:09 GMT
Once again you expose your ignorance to history Gym. Part of Marxist Philosophy was that all religion was by it's nature the following:
1.) false 2.) corrupted mans true nature 3.) helped the state to oppress man
No religious person could agree to search a view for obvious reasons.
Now you can have a belief that all people should be economically equal but that in of itself is not Marxism. ( basically this does not require a revolution or the removal of religion) Now can you provide one Communist regime period that did not declare itself to be an Atheist state. You know like the Atheist utopia of North Korea where it is so bad they flee to the Atheist utopia of China.
Yes you can believe in economic equality and be a religious person, however one cannot be a Marxist and be any supporter of religion. As it was Marxism that was spread through the planet by atheists. It was atheists who murdered 150 million people, which is more people then all religions put together period. The Katyn Massacre which was committed by Atheists in of itself killed more people then entire Christian Inquisition period. The Atheist Republicans in Spain killed more Christians then people that died during entire burning period in Europe. The French Freethinkers also have a greater murder toll then the entire burning time. The atheists in China killed more people in a decade then all the Native Americans who died in three centuries ( and these deaths were 99% disease and were not intended) So in a sane world, one should be absolutely paranoid about atheist having any sort of political power cause we can see how on a good day atheists are worse then the Ayatollahs on a bad day.
I can document the crimes of atheist against humanity all day long. While religious people kill no one kills as much and as brutally as do Atheists with the exception of the Nazis ( perhaps).
There are these things with bound paper called books Gym, why don't you get some and read them and see what crimes your people have committed.
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joel
Bachelor of the Arts
Posts: 70
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Post by joel on Feb 12, 2011 20:28:35 GMT
Daily Atheist's account of "the seed of communism" is laughably one-dimensional and simplistic, and it looks nothing like the description of Marxism's origins that historians would make. Talking about Marx's influences without even mentioning Hegel and German idealism is like leaving out John Locke when discussing influences on the US constitution.
For what it's worth by the way, I believe the gulag kill rate was closer to 10%. Though the gulag wasn't Stalin's greatest crime; the Ukrainian famine was.
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Post by krkey1 on Feb 12, 2011 20:55:47 GMT
I have read 40% but the issue remains that atheism was a necessary component of Marxism.
My thing is more and more I am just getting completely disgusted by these neo atheist. They believe they are better then people and certainly smarter then people yet we see the following.
Philosophy- many deny causality
Science- a belief that nothing can become something, mass hallucination which are equally scientific nonsense
History- Christ Myth, Conflict thesis, Hitler was a Christian, Communism was religious and a huge etc
Morality- tend to be prochoice, atheistic murders done by communist past and present, lying about history a huge etc.
Far from being paragons of humanity they tend to be overwhelming hypocrites of the first order.
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Post by captainzman on Feb 12, 2011 21:48:29 GMT
kkrey1,
First, let me say that I share your distaste of communism. My family suffered horribly under communist regimes, and I find it sickening when people try to ignore what went on or shift blame for what happened. I have similar feelings about abortion. That being said, atheism does not entail support for these positions. It's a fair question to ask if what associations atheism does have with communism and abortion, but it's not very charitable to to lump all atheists into those categories. Lots of internet atheists act like jerks, yes, but this only makes them look bad. If they want to keep doing that, then let them.
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Post by krkey1 on Feb 12, 2011 22:00:18 GMT
Yes Captain but Marxism which caused so much suffering on this planet was absolutely impossible with the necessary component of atheism. ( only an atheist could take up the mantle of destroying ALL religion) Atheism does not require the support of any position but you have many atheists who swear atheism is morally superior to religious based ethics and the historical record shows it is not.
I do not think all atheists are bad people, for example though Tim and I have butted heads on here I have a lot of respect for him. But some atheists really need to get off their high horse cause the evidence for superior atheist ethics and intellect are simply non existent. If anything the historical record shows the opposite.
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Post by captainzman on Feb 12, 2011 22:12:37 GMT
That's fine, just as long as you recognize that people become atheists for different reasons. Some do it because of a strong version of rationalism, some do it because of the problem of evil, etc. And yes, some people are atheists because of Marxism, but you can't lay the blame for the evils of communism at the feet of all atheists. Atheism has a very fragmented tradition.
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Post by krkey1 on Feb 12, 2011 22:27:35 GMT
In honesty I am just sick the holier then thou rhetoric of the Neos, they are not more moral or more intelligent then anyone else. At best they are a tie with the rest of humanity. I mean I find Hinduism to be more reasonable then denying causality for example. I do not see anything in Neos to make me think they were given more intelligence then the rest of us.
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Post by davedodo007 on Feb 13, 2011 0:03:50 GMT
In honesty I am just sick the holier then thou rhetoric of the Neos, they are not more moral or more intelligent then anyone else. At best they are a tie with the rest of humanity. I mean I find Hinduism to be more reasonable then denying causality for example. I do not see anything in Neos to make me think they were given more intelligence then the rest of us. The difference is atheists have morals, some atheists might even have bad morals but we do have them. The religious don't, there is no such thing as Christian 'morals' they don't exist. It's just obedience that's it in a nutshell. These are the rules, you obey them. What's moral about that. The punishments for disobeying these rules are extreme. Collect sticks on the Sabbath, death. Being raped, death. Worshipping other gods or non. Death etc. Thou shalt no kill but if you break any of these commandments, death. It's so bloody unreal it's pathetic. This of course leads to real world consequences like sexism, homophobia etc. I sense you are getting upset that you cherish beliefs are being attacked. I'm sorry about that but the rest of us have to live with the fallout of your beliefs. The fact that they make you warm and fuzzy inside doesn't justify the horror they have on other people. If humanity is to progress then we have to leave silly myths behind.
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