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Post by turoldus on Feb 19, 2013 22:57:35 GMT
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Mike D
Master of the Arts
Posts: 204
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Post by Mike D on Feb 20, 2013 9:10:02 GMT
"...the traditional story of persecution is still taught in Sunday school classes, celebrated in sermons, and employed by church leaders, politicians, and media pundits who insist that Christians were—and always will be—persecuted by a hostile, secular world..."
Wait, what??! Which world is this person living in? Which churches, which politicians and which media pundits has she been listening to?! - because I've never heard anyone coming out with this stuff.
"In The Myth of Persecution, Candida Moss reveals that the “Age of Martyrs” is a fiction—there was no sustained three-hundred-year-long effort by the Romans to persecute Christians. Instead, these stories were pious exaggerations; highly stylized rewritings of Jewish, Greek, and Roman noble death traditions; and even forgeries designed to marginalize heretics, inspire the faithful, and fund churches."
Yes, because obviously these are the only 2 possibilities - either systematic and continuous 300-year persecution, or none. Sounds like someone read through her Edward Gibbon and saw a chance to make a buck or two on the popular history (does this equate to a contradiction in terms? ;-) ) circuit...
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endrefodstad
Bachelor of the Arts
Sumer ys Icumen in!
Posts: 54
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Post by endrefodstad on Feb 20, 2013 10:42:36 GMT
I think someone needs to read the book, because the blurb makes it sound like the methodology can be used to mythologize almost anything.
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Post by sandwiches on Feb 20, 2013 12:04:44 GMT
www.theamericanconservative.com/larison/persecutions-and-history/I’m not sure why Moss sees a need to argue against “systematic persecution” or a “sustained three-hundred-year-long effort” of persecution, since no one studying Christianity in the Roman Empire that I know of argues that this is what happened. If there is one thing we do know about Roman persecutions of Christians, it is that they weren’t systematic and they weren’t sustained. I doubt that anyone seriously defends or teaches the idea that there was a constant, universal Roman policy of persecution that never let up, and anyone who does teach such a thing knows virtually nothing about the history of the church or the Roman Empire. The blurb seems to be an attempt to get at American rightwing Christians who supposedly claim Christians are persecuted in the US? www.commonwealthclub.org/node/64161Professor Moss posits that the early Church inflated and outright fabricated stories of Christian persecution as a means of growing their numbers. She also explains that the Church has, for centuries, carefully honed this perception of martyrdom to silence dissent and galvanize new generations of culture warriors. Citing recent examples (including Mitt Romney’s assertion that President Obama is waging a “war on religion” and Rick Santorum’s claim that the gay community “had gone out on a jihad” against him), Moss states that this rhetoric remains both politically popular and dangerous.
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Post by sandwiches on Feb 20, 2013 12:24:55 GMT
Here is two minutes of the (rather fetching) Candida explaining that there really was no "relentless" persecution of early Christians ("a myth in which Christians of all denominations remain deeply invested") and that er, US rightwingers are not therefore persecuted either: www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXWsrWIO_6QI suppose this sells better? A book saying that the extent of early Christian martyrdom was exaggerated is a bit of a yawn, but a hard-hitting book which undermines the claims of the American Right is "controversial" and "relevant"?
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Post by ignorantianescia on Feb 20, 2013 13:59:50 GMT
"...the traditional story of persecution is still taught in Sunday school classes, celebrated in sermons, and employed by church leaders, politicians, and media pundits who insist that Christians were—and always will be—persecuted by a hostile, secular world..."Wait, what??! Which world is this person living in? Which churches, which politicians and which media pundits has she been listening to?! - because I've never heard anyone coming out with this stuff. Re "secular persecution", I'd be surprised if there would be no such sounds in the US, but in any case, in my country they can be heard from pulpits (from the battier types of ministers). We occasionally get some of them in our church as well.
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Post by sandwiches on Feb 20, 2013 18:27:18 GMT
in my country they can be heard from pulpits (from the battier types of ministers). We occasionally get some of them in our church as well. Do you mind saying which country and which church and giving an example? I have attended church regularly for over 20 years and never heard a claim that Christians are being "persecuted". In fact as Christians (in other parts of the world) are persecuted, perhaps that's an indictment of the church I attend? christianity.about.com/b/2013/01/04/the-silent-story-of-christian-persecution.htm The Pew Research Center's Forum on Religion and Public Life estimated that persecution of Christians currently takes place in 130 countries, roughly two-thirds of all nations on the globe. According to Open Doors, an international non-profit ministry supporting persecuted Christians worldwide, the 10 worst offenders on the 2012 World Watch List include North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Somalia, Iran, Maldives, Uzbekistan, Yemen, Iraq and Pakistan.
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joel
Bachelor of the Arts
Posts: 70
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Post by joel on Feb 20, 2013 19:12:00 GMT
It seems kind of Anglocentric to me. She's right that American Christians often have too much of a persecution complex (witness the annual panic about people saying "happy Holidays" around Christmastime), but there are large parts of the world where Christians really are persecuted.
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Post by timoneill on Feb 20, 2013 19:40:46 GMT
Wait, what??! Which world is this person living in? Which churches, which politicians and which media pundits has she been listening to?! - because I've never heard anyone coming out with this stuff. You clearly don't watch Fox News or read any conservative American websites or fora. They are constantly banging on about how the poor massive Christian majority in that country are being vilely persecuted and oppressed by the wicked and all powerful tiny atheist minority. A lot of Bill O'Reilly's bloviation is on this imaginary persecution, especially around Yuletide. Google "war on Christmas" for multiple examples of what the author is referring to. I'll wait until the book comes out and I read a few reviews before I judge this one. The blurbs sound a bit too dumbed down to pass judgement yet.
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Post by turoldus on Feb 20, 2013 19:57:22 GMT
Here is two minutes of the (rather fetching) Candida explaining that there really was no "relentless" persecution of early Christians ("a myth in which Christians of all denominations remain deeply invested") and that er, US rightwingers are not therefore persecuted either So it's all about contemporary politics. History is one of the first casualties of (culture) war.
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Post by sankari on Feb 21, 2013 0:15:55 GMT
Wow, an entire book attacking a straw man. This woman is a simpleton. Having said that, American Christians don't help themselves with their incredible persecution complex:
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Mike D
Master of the Arts
Posts: 204
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Post by Mike D on Feb 21, 2013 0:18:21 GMT
Let me clarify - I've come across 'whole world is against us and we're being victimised' thing in some Christians, yes - I think most amusingly in the fiction of Frank Peretti, where there is an evil plot and persecution of the church by New Agers - that seemed about as likely and plausible and menacing as the premise in 'Night of the Lepus' - however, I haven't ever (to my knowledge) seen it linked to persecution by the Empire.
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Post by ignorantianescia on Feb 21, 2013 5:57:21 GMT
in my country they can be heard from pulpits (from the battier types of ministers). We occasionally get some of them in our church as well. Do you mind saying which country and which church and giving an example? I have attended church regularly for over 20 years and never heard a claim that Christians are being "persecuted". In fact as Christians (in other parts of the world) are persecuted, perhaps that's an indictment of the church I attend? Protestant Church of the Netherlands, mostly by some ultra-orthodox ministers from a close-by ultra-orthodox bulwark. Recently we had one railing against deregulation of the law regarding opening hours of shops on Sundays, which was linked to persecution and secular intolerance.
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Post by neodawson on Feb 25, 2013 4:43:44 GMT
I remember Rodney Stark addressing this issue in Rise of Christianity.
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Post by timoneill on Feb 25, 2013 9:21:49 GMT
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