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Post by gnosticbishop on Feb 12, 2016 18:47:48 GMT
Victims of pedophile priests and imams help create more victims with silence. I recently watched this disturbing movie and recognize that what it portrays fairly closely what is happenings in reality right now. www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=fQaNVNrJDInB8gfpqIDACw&gws_rd=ssl#q=spotlight+trailerThe silence and complicity of the religious are facilitating and colluding in the future assaults on children. Silence or the acceptance of a payoff, in my opinion, is direct collusion with these religious criminals and I see the past victims of these pedophiles as now helping their own assailants create new victims by their silence. I appreciate that going public is hard, but if victims do not come forward, I see them as helping the priests and imams that are left free to abuse other children. There are some who will read this and know that in a real sense victims are guilty of helping the pedophile problem continue. I would urge these victims and their families to step up and do the right thing and return the payoffs and lay charges instead so that we can rid our churches and mosques of these predatory criminals. Do you agree that silence is just as immoral as the initial crime when victims accept payoffs from religions to buy their silence? Regards DL
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Post by himself on Feb 16, 2016 23:34:05 GMT
Heck, I agree even when the perpetrators aren't religious, which doesn't seem to bother the Usual Suspects. Granted it was not the consensus stance back when the Sexual Revolution was in full bore. Spilling the beans was said to cause harm to the child by causing him or her to relive the experience. Much better to handle things quietly. Nowadays, the pravda has changed. In Child Maltreatment 2006, a report from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, we’re told that around 66 percent of those who sexually abuse children are parents, other relatives, unmarried partners of parents, friends, or neighbors, and that only 0.5 percent are “professionals.” And clergy are a subset of “professionals,” and Catholic priests are a subset of clergy. Neither Child Maltreatment 2006 nor any other study identifies clergy (much less Catholic priests) as a statistically significant class of perpetrators.
Thus, for example, in both actual numbers and percentages, sexual abuse of children by teachers, coaches, and employees in public schools exceeds anything that occurred in Catholic institutions.
...The 2007 Annual Report prepared by the Catholic bishops identifies fifteen allegations of childhood sexual abuse in the American Catholic Church from 2000 to 2007—an average of less than two per year. The 2007 Associated Press investigation identifies 2,570 public school teachers who, from 2001 through 2005, had their teaching licenses “taken away, denied, surrendered voluntarily, or restricted” as a result of sexual misconduct with minors—an average of 514 per year.
--Nussbaum and Nussbaum, reviewing Marci A. Hamilton’s Justice Denied
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Post by gnosticbishop on Feb 17, 2016 14:27:04 GMT
Heck, I agree even when the perpetrators aren't religious, which doesn't seem to bother the Usual Suspects. Granted it was not the consensus stance back when the Sexual Revolution was in full bore. Spilling the beans was said to cause harm to the child by causing him or her to relive the experience. Much better to handle things quietly. Nowadays, the pravda has changed. In Child Maltreatment 2006, a report from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, we’re told that around 66 percent of those who sexually abuse children are parents, other relatives, unmarried partners of parents, friends, or neighbors, and that only 0.5 percent are “professionals.” And clergy are a subset of “professionals,” and Catholic priests are a subset of clergy. Neither Child Maltreatment 2006 nor any other study identifies clergy (much less Catholic priests) as a statistically significant class of perpetrators.
Thus, for example, in both actual numbers and percentages, sexual abuse of children by teachers, coaches, and employees in public schools exceeds anything that occurred in Catholic institutions.
...The 2007 Annual Report prepared by the Catholic bishops identifies fifteen allegations of childhood sexual abuse in the American Catholic Church from 2000 to 2007—an average of less than two per year. The 2007 Associated Press investigation identifies 2,570 public school teachers who, from 2001 through 2005, had their teaching licenses “taken away, denied, surrendered voluntarily, or restricted” as a result of sexual misconduct with minors—an average of 514 per year.
--Nussbaum and Nussbaum, reviewing Marci A. Hamilton’s Justice Denied Stats are always interesting and I would question any fact finding paid for by any church.
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Quite a lot of info here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases
In July 2008 the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Denver agreed "to pay $5.5 million to settle 18 claims of childhood sexual abuse."[109] The Associated Press estimated that the total from settlements of sex abuse cases from 1950 to 2007 to be more than $2 billion.[88] According to Bishop Accountability reports that figure reached more than $3 billion in 2012.[51][85]
Most sex abuse cases are subject to the laws of each individual state. As of April 2010 many sex abusers associated with the Church in several countries have been tried by secular authorities and some have been convicted and sentenced to imprisonment.
Addressing "a flood of abuse claims" five dioceses (Tucson, Arizona; Spokane, Washington; Portland, Oregon.; Davenport, Iowa, and San Diego) got bankruptcy protection.[88] Eight Catholic diocese have declared bankruptcy due to sex abuse cases from 2004 to 2011.[89]
According to Donald Cozzens, "by the end of the mid 1990s, it was estimated that [...] more than half a billion dollars had been paid in jury awards, settlements and legal fees." This figure grew to about one billion dollars by 2002.[110] Roman Catholics spent $615 million on sex abuse cases in 2007.[111]
As of March 2006, dioceses in which abuse was committed or in which abuse allegations were settled out of court had made financial settlements with the victims totaling over $1.5 billion.[101] The number and size of these settlements made it necessary for the dioceses to reduce their ordinary operating expenses by closing churches and schools in order to raise the funds to make these payments.[96] Several dioceses chose to declare Chapter 11 bankruptcy as a way to litigate settlements while protecting some church assets to ensure it continues to operate.
By 2009, U.S. dioceses have paid more than US$2.6 billion in abuse-related costs since 1950.[112][113]
In many instances, dioceses were forced to declare bankruptcy as a result of the settlements. At least six U.S. dioceses sought bankruptcy protection. In some cases, the dioceses filed bankruptcy just before civil suits against them were about to go to trial. This had the effect of mandating that pending and future lawsuits be settled in bankruptcy court. The sexual abuse scandal costs each of the 195 dioceses "an average of $300,000 annually."
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himself
I do agree that the problem is huge. I see the clergy is just a large tip of an huge iceberg.
While silence wins, the problem will only get worse as perpetrators gain confidence by the silence they produce and often pay for.
Regards DL
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Post by himself on Feb 23, 2016 14:34:02 GMT
Eighteen, was it? Over how many years?
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Post by gnosticbishop on Feb 25, 2016 19:07:32 GMT
Eighteen, was it? Over how many years? Does it matter when we know that it is widespread?
Quite a lot of info here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases
In July 2008 the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Denver agreed "to pay $5.5 million to settle 18 claims of childhood sexual abuse."[109] The Associated Press estimated that the total from settlements of sex abuse cases from 1950 to 2007 to be more than $2 billion.[88] According to Bishop Accountability reports that figure reached more than $3 billion in 2012.[51][85]
Most sex abuse cases are subject to the laws of each individual state. As of April 2010 many sex abusers associated with the Church in several countries have been tried by secular authorities and some have been convicted and sentenced to imprisonment.
Addressing "a flood of abuse claims" five dioceses (Tucson, Arizona; Spokane, Washington; Portland, Oregon.; Davenport, Iowa, and San Diego) got bankruptcy protection.[88] Eight Catholic diocese have declared bankruptcy due to sex abuse cases from 2004 to 2011.[89]
According to Donald Cozzens, "by the end of the mid 1990s, it was estimated that [...] more than half a billion dollars had been paid in jury awards, settlements and legal fees." This figure grew to about one billion dollars by 2002.[110] Roman Catholics spent $615 million on sex abuse cases in 2007.[111]
As of March 2006, dioceses in which abuse was committed or in which abuse allegations were settled out of court had made financial settlements with the victims totaling over $1.5 billion.[101] The number and size of these settlements made it necessary for the dioceses to reduce their ordinary operating expenses by closing churches and schools in order to raise the funds to make these payments.[96] Several dioceses chose to declare Chapter 11 bankruptcy as a way to litigate settlements while protecting some church assets to ensure it continues to operate.
By 2009, U.S. dioceses have paid more than US$2.6 billion in abuse-related costs since 1950.[112][113]
In many instances, dioceses were forced to declare bankruptcy as a result of the settlements. At least six U.S. dioceses sought bankruptcy protection. In some cases, the dioceses filed bankruptcy just before civil suits against them were about to go to trial. This had the effect of mandating that pending and future lawsuits be settled in bankruptcy court. The sexual abuse scandal costs each of the 195 dioceses "an average of $300,000 annually."
------------------------ Abuse by Clergy Is Not Just a Catholic Problem www.nytimes.com/2002/04/13/us...pagewanted=all
A civil lawsuit accuses Lutheran officials of ignoring past incidents involving the pastor, Gerald Patrick Thomas Jr., and says they bear responsibility for his actions, a claim the national church strongly rejects.
Child Sexual Abuse CASES : Churches creatingsaferhavens.com/child...ted-cases.html
NV, Las Vegas - 1/22/2016* Former pastor found guilty in Las Vegas child sex case - Update of 1/3/2016 article NV, Las Vegas - *1/3/2016 Pastor in sex ‘counseling’ goes on trial for child abuse KY, Campton - 12/29/2015 Sexual abuse case against Powell County pastor sent to grand jury England, Warwick - 12/29/2015 Jehovah's Witnesses accused of covering up historic sex abuse KS, Overland Park - 12/29/2015 Kansas church hired known sex offender who then molested disabled churchgoer PA, Philadelphia - 12/29/2015 Philly DA pledges to keep former church official in custody despite new trial order TN, Brentwood - 12/1/2015* Morgan & Morgan Files Lawsuit for Child Sexual Assault Against Fellowship Bible Church TN, Brentwood - 12/1/2015 $37.5M sexual assault suit filed against Fellowship Bible Church Ala, Clark County - 10/28/2015 Daughter of Alabama pastor witnessed him sexually abuse minor, court filing states CA, Danville - 10/24/2015 Lawsuit Alleges School District, Church Didn't Take Proper Steps to Deter Molestation South America, Colombia - 9/17/2015* Catholic Church pedophile enjoys new life in Colombia TX, Bedford - 9/11/2015* Former Alabama pastor facing 29 sex abuse charges hired as minister in Texas church PA, Pittsburgh - 9/8/2015 Jury Picks Begin in Pennsylvania Priest's Sex Tourism Case Australia, Sydney - 7/27/2015 Jehovah's Witnesses Church Accused Of Hiding More Than 1,000 Child Sex Abuse Cases In Australia CA, Costa Mesa - 6/30/2015 Sex-abuse prosecutor: Church volunteer 'handpicked these boys.' Defense: 'There's reasonable doubt' TX, Ft. Worth - 6/25/2015 - Update Geronimo Aguilar, former mega-church pastor, found guilty of all sex crimes Vatican City - 6-15-2015 Vatican orders former Polish archbishop to stand trial for sex abuse NC/Fayetteville - 6/10/2015 Former Fayetteville principal pleads guilty to sex crimes Montana, Helena - 5/1/2015 Helena Diocese names perpetrators of sexual abuse; many at western Montana parishes Oregon - 4/30/2015 Happy Valley Pastor Mike Sperou convicted of child sex abuse, sentenced to 20 years in prison MD, Baltimore - 4/17/2015 Md. Church Youth Group Leader Charged With Possession, Distribution of Child Porn CA, Corona - 3/10/2015 Bible Study Teacher Arrested on Multiple Charges of Child Molestation CA, Santa Barbara - 3/8/2015 All Hell Breaks Loose in Sex Abuse Lawsuit Carpinteria Church, Presbytery of Santa Barbara Accused of Protecting Offenders and Neglecting Victims for Many Years W. VA, Princeton - 2/11/2015* Former church youth volunteer indicted on 50 charges as more victims come forward NY, Albion - 1/21/2015 Tearful Testimony at Trial of Alleged Pedophile Pastor OR, Portland - 1/14/2015 Women wait 18 years to see Portland pastor face child sex-abuse prosecution Poland - 1/13/2015 Polish priest sexually abused boys, sentenced to 7 years
Regards DL
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Post by himself on Mar 3, 2016 23:53:36 GMT
Alas, the cases of sexual predation by school teachers, ten times more prevalent, has not been pursued with equal zeal, proving that protection of the children was not the primary concern.
However, the risk factor due to professionals of any stripe is small compared to the risk from mother's live-in boy friend, which when I last saw statistics was a risk-ratio of 1300.
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mcc1789
Bachelor of the Arts
Posts: 86
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Post by mcc1789 on Mar 12, 2016 1:48:32 GMT
From what I've seen, the Church has been focused on because of the pervasive cover-ups, plus the hypocrisy from it being done by self-proclaimed moral authorities.
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Post by ignorantianescia on Mar 12, 2016 23:10:14 GMT
Not only cover-ups and moral hypocrisy of some, but it also gave abusers the opportunity to cause far more harm because of shielding from above. I haven't seen comparable statistics about cover-ups with other professions, though there must have been some of those there as well. The revelations about the pedophile ring and systematic cover-up at the BBC when it comes to Sevile don't really give cause for optimism, though. In any case, concern for children's freedom from sexual exploitation wasn't really much of a thing until the Sexual Revolution.
It is all in all a complex matter, although the ethics are quite clearly that the abusing priests and the elements in the hierarchies that enabled the cover-ups were atrocious and fully culpable. However, in the popular mind the problem has been shallowly flattened to "priests are extremely likely to be pedophiles", which is getting the situation entirely backwards, and I don't see how anybody can think there hasn't been anti-Catholicism in the response. If anything, the statistics seem to indicate that priests (and other clergy, also of other religions) are slightly less likely than other professions to be child abusers, though to be honest the statistics didn't appear to be that solid when I looked into it. Also how some have blamed celibacy without analysing the underlying cultural patterns suggests Protestant and modernist neuroses have led to knee-jerk reactions in popular discussion (celibacy in some specific ways has been a factor, but abusing priests were actually more likely to have violated their vows of celibacy in other ways as well than non-abusing priests).
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mcc1789
Bachelor of the Arts
Posts: 86
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Post by mcc1789 on Mar 13, 2016 1:05:48 GMT
Yes, very true. Every child molester moved to another parish rather than turned in to police was one free to molest again. I certainly agree that it has tarnished good priests' reputation, and fostered an irrational anti-Catholicism among many. Wrong as that is, it's a backlash that isn't surprising. It used to be that Ireland was much more Catholic for instance, but the great sense of betrayal at learning what the Church did has lessened that considerably. Misguided as many criticisms have been, they are unfortunately what you would expect. On celibacy specifically, I wonder if people with sexual desires that do not fit into what the Church approves of gravitate to the clergy in hopes they can live a celibate life (assuming they are Catholic and believe this is necessary of course). Obviously this does not work out for some, nor others in the cases of child abuse. This does not indict celibacy as a whole (it does not concern me if anyone wishes to remain celibate) but it may be an unintended side-effect.
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Post by ignorantianescia on Mar 13, 2016 8:01:41 GMT
Though that effect might be present for homosexuals, I don't think it is likely for paedophiles or ephebophiles. There isn't any evidence however that links homosexuality to child abuse (despite that the link has been asserted by some commentators). Overall, self-selection doesn't seem like a plausible mechanism though, because many at the time didn't become priests of their own choosing.
What I expect to be a bigger factor is that many priests before the 60s didn't themselves decide to enter the clergy, but were brought to church schools by their parents with a view to become priest later. This was quite common in my country and a source of prestige for the parents during the height of Roman Catholic "reconstruction". People being forced into celibacy from a very young age, to which not everybody would adapt well, getting considerable power over potential victims seems like a toxic set-up to me, so I think this is at least a plausible factor.
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mcc1789
Bachelor of the Arts
Posts: 86
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Post by mcc1789 on Mar 13, 2016 17:52:28 GMT
Why wouldn't it be present for them? I certainly don't intend that to link homosexuality with child abuse-as you say there's no evidence for that, and it's just a cruel aspersion which some have made. The only reason it seemed at least somewhat plausible to me was reading that about half of priests in the US were homosexual, which is far more than the average in the outside population. I don't think we have any numbers of pedophiles or ephebophiles in contrast, given the stigma. Further the exact cause of pedophilia isn't clear to me, however I read once that pedophiles reported having their desires from puberty.
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Post by domics on Mar 14, 2016 9:54:34 GMT
Not only cover-ups and moral hypocrisy of some, but it also gave abusers the opportunity to cause far more harm because of shielding from above. I haven't seen comparable statistics about cover-ups with other professions, though there must have been some of those there as well. In schools this practice is called "passing the trash". www.economist.com/node/1067027
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Post by domics on Mar 14, 2016 10:06:23 GMT
What I expect to be a bigger factor is that many priests before the 60s didn't themselves decide to enter the clergy, but were brought to church schools by their parents with a view to become priest later. Actually the vast majority of the abuses were perpretated by priests ordered after the 60s and someone call into question the new cultural climate of those times that could be seen even in seminaries.
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mcc1789
Bachelor of the Arts
Posts: 86
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Post by mcc1789 on Mar 14, 2016 12:43:07 GMT
What cultural climate was this?
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Post by ignorantianescia on Mar 14, 2016 21:00:50 GMT
Why wouldn't it be present for them? I certainly don't intend that to link homosexuality with child abuse-as you say there's no evidence for that, and it's just a cruel aspersion which some have made. The only reason it seemed at least somewhat plausible to me was reading that about half of priests in the US were homosexual, which is far more than the average in the outside population. I don't think we have any numbers of pedophiles or ephebophiles in contrast, given the stigma. Further the exact cause of pedophilia isn't clear to me, however I read once that pedophiles reported having their desires from puberty. Well, as I said, what I heard fits better with a time frame during which it was uncommon for men to personally decide to become priests. But domics contests that, so maybe your point still applies. Nor is it clear to me why paedophiles would self-select into the priesthood. For easy access to children, other professions would make more sense. What I expect to be a bigger factor is that many priests before the 60s didn't themselves decide to enter the clergy, but were brought to church schools by their parents with a view to become priest later. Actually the vast majority of the abuses were perpretated by priests ordered after the 60s and someone call into question the new cultural climate of those times that could be seen even in seminaries. That is the vast majority of reported abuses. It depends on how optimistic one is about the time before then, when children weren't as important and high-status as they are now. I personally wouldn't expect a lot of evidence from the earlier era and admittedly I am rather pessimistic when it comes towards power without accountability. Honestly, sexual crimes are often vastly underreported for a variety of reasons including stigma (to this day), so I don't think it is reasonable to expect the absence of evidence to indicate evidence of absence. Also, the expert whom I have heard on the matter identified the educational environment in which celibacy was taught to young boys to become priests as a problem. In his verdict, those young boys were taught to treat any feelings of sexual lust in an obsessive repressive way, rather than natural feelings that had to be redirected to non-sexual, productive ends (for celibacy to work at least). I'll readily allow that a repressive education combined with a culture of sexual liberty (and that included at first also a lot of paedophilia apologia) could double up the problem, though. In any case, a lot of the reported cases occurred between the 60s and the 90s - that really is consistent with either scenario.
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