A Quote from Sagan

[timoneill]

"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, "This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said—grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed"? Instead they say, "No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way."
(Carl Sagan)

There are any number of religious traditions that do fit Sagan's generalisation here, but can anyone come up with some quotes that make precisely the point Sagan says religions generally don't make? I've thought of a couple from Kepler and Copernicus, but I'm after things by William of Conches etc. And I'm sure JPII said a few things that would fit into this category.

Suggestions?

[Al Moritz]

Psalm 19:1 "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of His hands."

In the fifteeth century the theologian, Cardinal and astronomer Nicolas of Cusa suggested that the universe might be infinite in size precisely because he thought that such a universe would better reflect the infinity of its creator.

(Stephen Barr Modern Physics and Ancient Faith, p. 159, referring to Copleston, A History of Philosophy, 3, II: 47-48.)

[syzygy]

How about going to the person in the pew for religion's attitude toward the universe. This morning we sang "How Great Thou Art!" It starts: "O Lord my God, when I in awesome wonder consider all the worlds thy hands have made..." I don't know where Sagan could have gotten the idea that Christians like a little world and an only slightly bigger God. All the Christians I know are happy with an awesome universe and an even more awesome God.

In Babb, Montana, we have a small church with a mural of the "mountain grandeur" of nearby Glacier National Park behind the altar. Come and see!

[merkavah12]

Syzygy,

Hmmm! That sounds lovely. I might just come and visit!

[humphreyclarke]

Aug 19, 2010 1:02:12 GMT timoneill said:

"How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, "This is better than we thought! The Universe is much bigger than our prophets said—grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed"? Instead they say, "No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way."

When the New England Puritan minister Cotton Mather looked through a telescope at the night sky he wrote:

“Great GOD, what a Variety of Worlds hast thou created! How astonishing are the Dimensions of them! How stupendous are the Displays of thy Greatness, and of thy Glory, in the Creatures with which thou hast replenished those Worlds! . . . Who can tell what Uses those marvellous Globes may be designed for.”

[ignorantianescia]

A longwinded quote of John Calvin:
"Therefore, in reading profane authors, the admirable light of truth displayed in them should remind us, that the human mind, however much fallen and perverted from its original integrity, is still adorned and invested with admirable gifts from its Creator. If we reflect that the Spirit of God is the only fountain of truth, we will be careful, as we would avoid offering insult to him, not to reject or condemn truth wherever it appears. In despising the gifts, we insult the Giver. How, then, can we deny that truth must have beamed on those ancient lawgivers who arranged civil order and discipline with so much equity? Shall we say that the philosophers, in their exquisite researches and skilful description of nature, were blind? Shall we deny the possession of intellect to those who drew up rules for discourse, and taught us to speak in accordance with reason? Shall we say that those who, by the cultivation of the medical art, expended their industry in our behalf were only raving? What shall we say of the mathematical sciences? Shall we deem them to be the dreams of madmen? Nay, we cannot read the writings of the ancients on these subjects without the highest admiration; an admiration which their excellence will not allow us to withhold. But shall we deem anything to be noble and praiseworthy, without tracing it to the hand of God? Far from us be such ingratitude; an ingratitude not chargeable even on heathen poets, who acknowledged that philosophy and laws, and all useful arts were the inventions of the gods. Therefore, since it is manifest that men whom the Scriptures term carnal, are so acute and clear-sighted in the investigation of inferior things, their example should teach us how many gifts the Lord has left in possession of human nature, notwithstanding of its having been despoiled of the true good."
Institutio, book 2, chapter 2, section 15
www.vor.org/rbdisk/html/institutes/2_02.htm#2.2.15

A not longwinded quote of Pope John Paul II:
"The scientific disciplines too, as is obvious, are endowing us with an understanding and appreciation of our universe as a whole and of the incredibly rich variety of intricately related processes and structures which constitute its animate and inanimate components. This knowledge has given us a more thorough understanding of ourselves and of our humble yet unique role within creation. Through technology it also has given us the capacity to travel, to communicate, to build, to cure and to probe in ways which would have been almost unimaginable to our ancestors. Such knowledge and power, as we have discovered, can be used greatly to enhance and improve our lives or they can be exploited to diminish and destroy human life and the environment even on a global scale."
Letter to the Reverend George V. Coyne, S.J.
www.its.caltech.edu/~nmcenter/sci-cp/sci-coyne.html

Saint Augustine:
"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he hold to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods and on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion. [1 Timothy 1.7]"
De Genesi ad litteram libri duodecim
www.pibburns.com/augustin.htm

I tried to find something more hilarious, but that was thwarted.

[himself]

"For He gave me sound knowledge of existing things, that I might know the organization of the universe and the force of its elements,
The beginning and the end and the midpoint of times,
The changes in the sun's course and the variations of the seasons.
Cycles of years, positions of the stars,
Natures of animals, tempers of beasts,
Powers of the winds and thoughts of men,
Uses of plants and virtues of roots

Such things as are hidden I learned and such as are plain; for Wisdom, the artificer of all, taught me. For in her is a spirit intelligent, holy, unique, manifold, subtle, agile, clear, unstained, certain, not baneful, loving the good, keen, unhampered, beneficent, kindly, firm, secure, tranquil, all-powerful, all-seeing, and pervading all spirits, though they be intelligent, pure and very subtle.

For Wisdom is mobile beyond all motion, and she penetrates and pervades all things by reason of her purity.
For she is an aura of the might of God and a pure effusion of the glory of the Almighty; therefore nought that is sullied enters into her.

(Wisdom 7:17-25)

[courtney]

Tim o'Neill writes:

And I'm sure JPII said a few things that would fit into this category.
Suggestions?

With respect to JPII, there is this one from Saturday 11 January 1997, when he spoke at the International Conference on Space Research (University of Padua, Italy):

“As never before man's gaze is open to the wonders of the universe. And the marvel of it all is a constant call to ponder ever more seriously the greatness of man's own destiny and his dependence upon the Creator. Thus, while we stand in awe before the vastness of the cosmos and the dynamism which pervades it, our hearts echo with certain fascinating and fundamental questions which continue to challenge humanity at the dawn of the new millennium.”

L'Osservatore Romano, 22 January 1997

Or more recently by current Pope Benedict .XVI last year:

Dear friends, modern cosmology has shown us that neither we, nor the earth we stand on, is the centre of our universe, composed of billions of galaxies, each of them with myriads of stars and planets. Yet, as we seek to respond to the challenge of this Year – to lift up our eyes to the heavens in order to rediscover our place in the universe – how can we not be caught up in the marvel expressed by the Psalmist so long ago? Contemplating the starry sky, he cried out with wonder to the Lord: “When I see your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars which you set in place, what is man that you should be mindful of him, or the son of man, that you should care for him?” (Ps 8:4-5). It is my hope that the wonder and exaltation which are meant to be the fruits of this International Year of Astronomy will lead beyond the contemplation of the marvels of creation to the contemplation of the Creator, and of that Love which is the underlying motive of his creation – the Love which, in the words of Dante Alighieri, “moves the sun and the other stars”

storico.radiovaticana.org/en1/storico/2009-10/330630_pope_benedict_xvi_meets_astronomers.html

Or we could go back to Pope Pius XII addressing the Eighth General Assembly of the International Astronomical Union in Rome (1952):

"the human spirit, upon considering the vast paths traveled by galaxies, becomes in some manner a spectator at the cosmic events that occurred on the very morning of creation."

Which, incidently, was a speech modified after taking advice from Monsignor Lemaître, of “Big Bang” fame, which brings me nicely to a quote from Lemaître himself:

“We cannot end this rapid review which we have made together of the most magnificent subject that the human mind may be tempted to explore without being proud of these splendid endeavors of Science in the conquest of the Earth, and also without expressing our gratitude to One Who has said: "I am the Truth," One Who gave us the mind to understand him and to recognize a glimpse of his glory in our universe which he has so wonderfully adjusted to the mental power with which he has endowed us”

I don't know if these exactly match Sagan's question. But they do express similar sentiments, which is about all we would normally expect.