Charles Freeman's AD 381

[barca]

I am familiar with the discussions on this website about his previous controversial work, The Closing of the Western Mind, which I have not read yet, but I saw AD 381 while browsing at a local bookstore, picked it up and I found it very interesting. I am not planning to write a review, but I thought I would share some of my observations.
www.amazon.com/AD-381-Charles-Freeman/dp/159020171X

He appears to be very sensitive to being regarded as an opponent of Christianity. He believes in having a spiritual dimension as part of a healthy mind, and he disagrees with the frenzied denunciations of individuals such as Richard Dawkins. However he admits to having difficulty in being asked to believe a particular dogma on faith alone.

There is considerable discussion on the trinity, and the relationship between the father, son, holy spirit, which apparently led to violent disagreements back then. Those issues don't seem to be of much relevance to today's world.

He presents Augustine as anti-intellectual: "there is another form of temptation, even more fraught with danger. This is the disease of curiosity...it is this which drives us to try and discover the secrets of nature, these secrets which are beyond our understanding, which can avail us nothing, and which man should not wish to learn."

He also accuses Augustine of providing the theological justification for persecutions. i.e that the threat of hell fire is so severe that the end justifies the means.

I have many more observations, but I don't want to make this post too long. Has anyone else read this book?

[blessedkarl]

The fact that certain works of Augustine, such as The Confessions, contained, and were clearly influenced by, Greek philosophy, should demonstrate that he most certainly was not anti-intellectual and did not repudiate learning. I consider Augustine to, at times, be a little too extreme (blaming himself for selfishness as a baby). But anti-intellectual? I've never heard of that before. Actually I think Augustine had a rather dim view of anti-intellectual Christians. For example, in The Confessions he refers to a certain point of contention the Manicheans had with orthodox Christianity. The point was essentially this: what was God doing before he created the world, sitting around? Augustine actually then proceeded to rail against those Christians who would sneer that he was preparing hell for those who asked stupid questions. Then Augustine presented a philosophical rebuttal of the Manichean argument. In short, the intellectual life meant a great deal to Augustine.

[himself]

It is also clear that Augustine was using "curiosity" in the sense that we moderns would use the word "nosiness" or "eavesdropping." The sense is of "idle curiosity," because it is quite clear elsewhere that he had no objections to scholarship as such. He just thought it was more important to feed the hungry than to study the stars to cast horoscopes. We see the same ultra-liberal positions today.

[rtaylor]

You mentioned that often qouted Christian Theologian Augustine.
One of his not very often quoted qoutes is this, from The Rise and Influenence of Rationalism in Europe. Vol 2. By W H Hartpole Lecky. 1888.

"It was merciful, he contended, to punish heretics even by death, if this could save them or others from the eternal suffering that awaited the unconverted. Heresy was described in scripture as a kind of adultery; it was the worst species of murder, being the murder of souls; it was also a form of blasphemy, and on all these grounds might justly be punished."

If the NT contained no examples of the apostles employing force, this was simply because in their time no prince had embraced Christianity. But had not Eligah slaughtered with his own hand the priests of Baal? Did not Hezakiah, and Josiah, and the king of Ninevah, and Nebudcahadnozzor after his conversion destroy by force idolatry within their domains and where they not expressly commended for it ?

Saint Augustine seems to have originated the application of the words,
" Compel them to enter in", to religeous persecution.
Luke 14:23- 24. Jesus himself speaks these words.

[davidem]

Yes, and was it not Augustine who said something along the lines: "You persecute us because you hate us; we persecute you because we love you."

"Love" is such a wonderful thing, many-splendoured and all that! What would we do without it?

[barca]

Oct 9, 2010 11:34:35 GMT rtaylor said:

You mentioned that often qouted Christian Theologian Augustine.
One of his not very often quoted qoutes is this, from The Rise and Influenence of Rationalism in Europe. Vol 2. By W H Hartpole Lecky. 1888.

"It was merciful, he contended, to punish heretics even by death, if this could save them or others from the eternal suffering that awaited the unconverted. Heresy was described in scripture as a kind of adultery; it was the worst species of murder, being the murder of souls; it was also a form of blasphemy, and on all these grounds might justly be punished."

If the NT contained no examples of the apostles employing force, this was simply because in their time no prince had embraced Christianity. But had not Eligah slaughtered with his own hand the priests of Baal? Did not Hezakiah, and Josiah, and the king of Ninevah, and Nebudcahadnozzor after his conversion destroy by force idolatry within their domains and where they not expressly commended for it ?

Saint Augustine seems to have originated the application of the words,
" Compel them to enter in", to religeous persecution.
Luke 14:23- 24. Jesus himself speaks these words.

Is that an exact quote of St. Augustine, or was it paraphrased by the author?

[bjorn]

Nov 5, 2010 23:05:49 GMT barca said:

Oct 9, 2010 11:34:35 GMT rtaylor said:

You mentioned that often qouted Christian Theologian Augustine.
One of his not very often quoted qoutes is this, from The Rise and Influenence of Rationalism in Europe. Vol 2. By W H Hartpole Lecky. 1888.

"It was merciful, he contended, to punish heretics even by death, if this could save them or others from the eternal suffering that awaited the unconverted. Heresy was described in scripture as a kind of adultery; it was the worst species of murder, being the murder of souls; it was also a form of blasphemy, and on all these grounds might justly be punished."

If the NT contained no examples of the apostles employing force, this was simply because in their time no prince had embraced Christianity. But had not Eligah slaughtered with his own hand the priests of Baal? Did not Hezakiah, and Josiah, and the king of Ninevah, and Nebudcahadnozzor after his conversion destroy by force idolatry within their domains and where they not expressly commended for it ?

Saint Augustine seems to have originated the application of the words,
" Compel them to enter in", to religeous persecution.
Luke 14:23- 24. Jesus himself speaks these words.

Is that an exact quote of St. Augustine, or was it paraphrased by the author?

Not quite sure, though I suspect Lecky (who is the only source for this quote on the net, and from the 1800s, something that ought to ring a bell) may have enhanced it a bit and generalised from Donatists to heretics in general.

A modern analysis shows that Augustine had both a rather nuanced approach, favoring dialogue, though it varied a bit over time and became increasingly harsh, particularly toward the Donatists - digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1013&context=lts_fac_pubs.

As we have shown, Augustine invested a great deal of time and energy relating to non-Christian and heretical groups during his time as a priest and bishop in the church of Hippo. With the exception of his approval of traditional pagans being suppressed by the Roman state, Augustine consistently appealed to the pagans, Jews, Manicheans, Pelagians, Arians, Priscillianists, and Marcionites through reason and persuasion. While seeking to convert them to Christianity or defend the church against their teachings, Augustine interacted with them through letters, books, personal debates, and indirectly through church councils. Hence, Burt’s assertion, previously cited, seems to summarize appropriately Augustine’s manner of dealing with other religions and heresies: a “tolerant approach . . . was always his preferred method of dealing with those of other beliefs.”

We have shown that Augustine did accept the state’s intervention uniquely in the case of the Donatists. It has been argued that he did this because of their constant refusal to meet and debate the issues; because they were a threat to the unity of the church; and because they were in some cases violent. Through the influence of other catholic bishops, Augustine also began to appreciate the practical effects of coercing the Donatists into unity. Finally, his thoughts on coercion changed because he realized that cohertio could also be a loving form of correction. Hence, Augustine allowed the Roman state to intervene against the Donatists as a last resort following fruitless efforts to convert them through persuasion.

Despite defending the role of Christian emperors carrying out the will of God following Honorius’ edict of unity in 405, Augustine continued labored to persuade the Donatists to abandon their erroneous teaching and practice. This is most evident in his post-411 letters and books as well as his visit to Emeritus in Mauretania Caesarea in 418. In fact, Augustine’s message to the Donatists through books, letters, and meetings remained consistent in each of the three periods studied.

While quite open about his intention to convert other religious groups and heresies to the Christian church, the evidence surveyed strongly suggests that Augustine’s preferred approach was through persuasion. Hence, his attitude and concerns toward groups that did not conform to orthodox Christianity were pastoral rather than political distinguishing him, for instance, from those who systematically oppressed heretics in Europe during the medieval period.