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Post by humphreyclarke on Jul 15, 2009 6:38:54 GMT
There are apparently some Melbournites who love that football team! : ) Yep. Melbourne's getto suburb Collingwood has lots of Bogans with bad mullet hair cuts, tattoos and next to no teeth. Unlike that fair country city 80 kms to the west. I was going to ask what a 'Bogan' is, but having done a quick google search I see that it's a: 'pejorative or self-deprecating term, for a person who is, or is perceived to be, of a lower-class background. According to the stereotype, the speech and mannerisms of "bogans" indicate poor education, cheap clothing and uncultured upbringing. 'Bogans' usually reside in economically disadvantaged suburbs (often outer metropolitan) or rural areas'en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BoganThere is even a video! www.youtube.com/watch?v=qA8gJoT5yl4This is the classy British equivalent.
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Post by merkavah12 on Jul 15, 2009 6:40:05 GMT
So bogun=chavs?
Huh....
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Post by timoneill on Jul 16, 2009 0:43:21 GMT
This thread has certainly taken a strange turn ... Well, no, not exactly. Chavs, as far as I can tell, are a rather more lower socio-economic strata + dress style affair, whereas Bogans are ... harder to define. Some styles of dress certainly come into it (flannelette shirts, tight jeans, mullets) and Boganism certainly has its origins in the "working class". But there are places in Sydney where Bogans live in very comfortable or even expensive suburbs, including waterfront southern areas and the reasonably exclusive northern beaches. It's not like Bogans live in housing estates. Boganism is more a cheerful or even defiant adoption or embrace of a certain type of deliberately unsophisticated and relentlessly "Anglo" Australian lifestyle and ethos. Football, motor sports, fishing, AC/DC, pub rock, V8 cars and "true blue Aussie" icons and ideals are embraced, while anything to do with the arts, most "ethnic" influences, left-wing ideals, multiculturalism or things associated with innner-city types are vigorously rejected or simply regarded with incomprehension. At their best, Bogans are salt of the earth types with all the cheerful wry good humour of a slightly old-fashioned and simpler Australia. At their ugliest Bogans are narrow-minded, reactionary and highly vocal xenophobes. The recent rise of "Bogan Patriotism" (better known as dumb whitebread racism) has been marked in recent years by many younger bogans getting "Southern Cross" tattoos, ugly incidents at sporting and music festivals where "non-Anglos" are forced to kiss the Australian flag, and incidents like the "Wog Bashing Day" riots at Cronulla Beach a few years ago. Essentially, the best way to tell if someone is a Bogan is to ask them. If they say "Yes", trust them, they are.
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Post by merkavah12 on Jul 16, 2009 1:55:32 GMT
Dearest friends,
My apologies for continuing to derail the thread, but I am always fascinated by these sorts of inter-cultural discussions.
So Tim....a Bogan would be close to what Americans refer to as Rednecks, whereas Chavs would be closer to the so-called "surburban gangsta" group (that is, rich boys living out the fantasy of being a member of an economically disenfranchised/socially discriminated minority) ?
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Post by timoneill on Jul 16, 2009 2:40:20 GMT
Dearest friends, My apologies for continuing to derail the thread, but I am always fascinated by these sorts of inter-cultural discussions. So Tim....a Bogan would be close to what Americans refer to as Rednecks, whereas Chavs would be closer to the so-called "surburban gangsta" group (that is, rich boys living out the fantasy of being a member of an economically disenfranchised/socially discriminated minority) ? Rednecks aren't an exact fit either, since a hell of a lot of bogans are urban. But that's a much closer fit than chavs. For some strange reason the closest thing we have to chavs are the young Lebanese guys ("Lebs") who think they are gangsters - same (appalling) dress sense. The "Leb" and the "Bogan" are natural enemies in the wild.
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Post by merkavah12 on Jul 16, 2009 4:32:39 GMT
[/quote]
For some strange reason the closest thing we have to chavs are the young Lebanese guys ("Lebs") who think they are gangsters - same (appalling) dress sense. The "Leb" and the "Bogan" are natural enemies in the wild.[/quote]
Appalling dress sense? How so? Baggy trousers? Tight leather? Disturbing animal costumes?
I would imagine that two such groups (based on your description) would have the same issues between them as would our rednecks (who DO have an urban flavor in recent years as seen in the rise of 'City Jacks', 'the Transplanted Redneck', or just simply, 'Urban Reds' ) and the suburban gangsta genus.
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Post by wraggy on Jul 16, 2009 7:39:40 GMT
I will not make any comments about how Australians view Taswegians. But the temptation is enormous.
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Post by eckadimmock on Jul 16, 2009 8:16:35 GMT
Yes, "Bogan" is a little hard to define: i guess Redneck is the closest US equivalent that I can think of, with the qualification that they are urban as well as rural. If you can picture what a sensitive, new age guy is, then a bogan is the opposite.
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Post by humphreyclarke on Jul 16, 2009 9:18:56 GMT
The Scottish equivalent of Chav is 'ned', which I used to think stood for 'non educated delinquent' but is apparently an old slang term. When I lived up in St Andrews the neds used to hang around the doorway of the supermarket spitting on students as they went in, they would also hang around the garage looking for fights or hang round in playgrounds drinking buckfast. A bit annoying, but small beer compared to Glasgow where groups of kids from different estates (schemes) can be seen attacking each other with weapons like bed-posts, kitchen knives and machetes. The story of 'Buckfast' is quite interesting. It is a tonic wine which was originally made by monks at Buckfast abbey. However it became the tipple of choice for neds because of its high alcohol content. Now it is indelibly associated with teenage drinking and violent crime. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5381360.stmI recommend: www.glasgowsurvival.co.uk/Here are some examples: These kids are drinking buckfast. It is about £5 a bottle, but the alcohol content is 15%. The kids above are drinking MD 20/20 which is about 20% if I recall; but more expensive so perhaps they have more 'refined tastes'.
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Post by jamierobertson on Jul 16, 2009 9:26:54 GMT
I was brought up in a town outside Glasgow called Airdrie. Airdrie, and its neighbour Coatbridge, are reknowned (not unfairly) for having absurdly high levels of Buckfast consumption - and, correspondingly, lots of neds. Think malnourished, shellsuit-wearing, nasal-voiced delinquents driving a white Vauxhall Nova, and you'll get the idea.
As one outside visitor said:
"Airdrie. So many baseball bats. So little baseball."
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Post by humphreyclarke on Jul 16, 2009 9:34:50 GMT
I was brought up in a town outside Glasgow called Airdrie. Airdrie, and its neighbour Coatbridge, are reknowned (not unfairly) for having absurdly high levels of Buckfast consumption - and, correspondingly, lots of neds. Think malnourished, shellsuit-wearing, nasal-voiced delinquents driving a white Vauxhall Nova, and you'll get the idea. As one outside visitor said: "Airdrie. So many baseball bats. So little baseball." Should we be telling the Aussies this? I'm worried I am going to be hurting our tourist industry.
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Post by unkleE on Jul 16, 2009 11:23:41 GMT
The photos and experiences you have lovingly shared with us, Humphrey, are very reassuring, but also challenging to our collective confidence in the scientific theory of natural selection.
Are these neds really the outcome of 4 billion years of evolution by natural selection? Or are they an evolutionary sidetrack that will shortly die out? Perhaps homo sapiens in its entirety is just such a dead end?
These are the important questions that this forum exists to answer! Where is Al when all his evolutionary expertise is needed!? When will Richard Dawkins abandon his failed attempts to be a philosopher and apply his considerable scientific intellect to the question of the evolutionary pathways, competitive advantage and future evolution of the Airdrie ned???
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Post by James Hannam on Jul 16, 2009 12:29:40 GMT
Thanks guys. But I think that is enough anthropology for one thread....
J
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Post by humphreyclarke on Aug 7, 2009 13:58:24 GMT
Is Follet's medieval saga any good? I see two fat books around: Pillers of the Earth and World Without End, but I'm unwilling to start something so enormous unless I have good reason to know I'll enjoy it. And the other tome - interested in your thoughts. Sorry. I think I missed this due to a detour into anthropology. Pillars of the Earth was good. It's fairly brainless stuff and there are quite a number of medieval clichés, but the author obviously loves the period and has a good grip on the process of building a cathedral. He has got a gift for a fast paced narrative with lots of characters and does a good job of juggling the stories. There is also quite a bit of gratuitous sex and violence; Ivanhoe it ain't. One amusing thing is that the author is one of these secular humanists types and he can't resist giving his characters the odd moment where they question the religious norms of their day and seem on the brink of enlightenment, only to think 'nah' and move on. World without end is very much in the same vein with similar characters. It's not on the level of something like 'Name of the Rose' but it is a pretty easy read and entertaining while it lasts. Other book, have a review coming up, but don't worry, its not 900 pages of abuse like Julius Caesar Scalinger's.
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Post by James Hannam on Aug 7, 2009 14:52:42 GMT
Thanks Humphrey. When I've got some downtime, I'll check it out.
Best wishes
James
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