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Post by unkleE on May 16, 2012 22:40:56 GMT
Most of us on this forum are probably at least slightly familiar with philosopher Michael Ruse, a reasonable and peace-making man and an atheist. He is famous for panning Dawkins' The God Delusion, querying the motives of the so-called new atheists and having respect for some christian philosophers. This old piece gives the flavour - Dawkins et al bring us into disrepute. A recent comment on the limits of science - Why is there something rather than nothing? - is also well worth reading. |
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Post by puppyclaws on May 16, 2012 23:18:38 GMT
I appreciate Ruse's argument in general here, but it's so very English of him to half-heartedly admit that "The troubles in Northern Ireland were surely about socio-economic issues also...."
Obviously the "also" here implies that a major cause of The Troubles was religion. Which is such a fascinatingly backwards view of what has always been a land dispute, in which religion was merely a great way to hurl epithets and identify those who sympathize with the other side.
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Post by timoneill on May 18, 2012 23:42:53 GMT
Obviously the "also" here implies that a major cause of The Troubles was religion. Which is such a fascinatingly backwards view of what has always been a land dispute, in which religion was merely a great way to hurl epithets and identify those who sympathize with the other side. Sorry, but it was not "always" a land dispute. Religion ceased to be a major motivating factor once the tribal and socio-economic divisions that drove the Troubles were well entrenched. But to pretend that those divisions didn't have their historical roots in genuine and deep religious hatreds is to deny history. |
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Post by himself on May 19, 2012 19:59:33 GMT
That explains why there was no troubles between the Irish and the English during the centuries when they both professed the same religion. Oh, wait. "If the king of England woke up Hindu, the Irish would be facing Mecca by nightfall." |
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Post by timoneill on May 19, 2012 20:01:14 GMT
That explains why there was no troubles between the Irish and the English during the centuries when they both professed the same religion. Oh, wait. "If the king of England woke up Hindu, the Irish would be facing Mecca by nightfall." Ummm, the Troubles were between the Irish and the Irish. |
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Post by himself on May 21, 2012 1:18:43 GMT
the Troubles were between the Irish and the Irish. Between the Gaels (for the most part) and the Galls (for the most part): descendants of Scots and English colonialists who planted Ulaid, took the property of the Irish and drove them "to hell or Connaught." The Troubles started a long time ago, and achieved partial success when the Republic was founded. Then Those-Who-Had-Property-and-Power drew the boundaries of what they called Northern Ireland so as to enclose the greatest amount of territory while not losing a majority. That's why three of the counties of Ulster were excluded. Had any one of them been added, the Unionists would have lost the majority. Even so, they were able to include three more sparsely populated counties with a Republican majority. That is why the fight has been over land, and always has been, even before the descendants of the settlers began calling themselves Irish. (Those that came to America were called the "Scots-Irish.") |
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Post by timoneill on May 21, 2012 3:16:54 GMT
the Troubles were between the Irish and the Irish. Between the Gaels (for the most part) and the Galls (for the most part): descendants of Scots and English colonialists who planted Ulaid, took the property of the Irish and drove them "to hell or Connaught." The Troubles started a long time ago, and achieved partial success when the Republic was founded. Then Those-Who-Had-Property-and-Power drew the boundaries of what they called Northern Ireland so as to enclose the greatest amount of territory while not losing a majority. That's why three of the counties of Ulster were excluded. Had any one of them been added, the Unionists would have lost the majority. Even so, they were able to include three more sparsely populated counties with a Republican majority. That is why the fight has been over land, and always has been, even before the descendants of the settlers began calling themselves Irish. (Those that came to America were called the "Scots-Irish.") With a surname like mine, you think I don't know all this? Again, to pretend that the Troubles had nothing to do with religion is as wrong as to pretend that's all they were about. |
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Post by hawkinthesnow on May 21, 2012 19:06:26 GMT
Interesting that the subject of the Troubles should come up. I am reading a biography of John Betjeman, and came across this today:
"At this date 1926, the Irish Civil War was just over. Many of the great houses owned by Anglo Irish gentry had been torched, and the landowners threatened with death. Nevill Coghill, an aesthete don at Oxford, came from the Protestant enclave of West Cork. During the Toubles, he was taken by the IRA to a tree on his estates, blindfolded, and told to prepare for death. Being a "High Church Nancy" - to use the contemporary jargon - he made the sign of the Cross. The men rushed forward, removed the bandage from his eyes, and apologised. "Sure Mr Nevill, and we never knew you were a Catholic."
Just an anecdote.
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Post by humphreyclarke on May 21, 2012 21:03:47 GMT
Many of the great houses owned by Anglo Irish gentry had been torched, and the landowners threatened with death. Yeah, the anti-treaty forces firebombed my ancestral home - Graiguenoe Park, in Co Tipperary. Still miffed about that. |
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Post by unkleE on May 21, 2012 23:47:44 GMT
Many of the great houses owned by Anglo Irish gentry had been torched, and the landowners threatened with death. Yeah, the anti-treaty forces firebombed my ancestral home - Graiguenoe Park, in Co Tipperary. Still miffed about that. C'mon Humphrey, you can't leave us hanging like that. International man of mystery, Humphrey Clarke, estates in three countries (Cavendish in East Anglia, New England in the USA, and now Graiguenoe Park, in Co Tipperary), what's the story?? : ) |
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Post by humphreyclarke on May 22, 2012 15:35:05 GMT
 - Overselling me a bit there. Sadly I don't have any estates. The place in Cavendish is my folks house which is an old watermill. The place is New England is a large rental but there isn't much land with it by American standards. The Clarke side of my family were from Raphoe in Donegal. By some incredible feats of social climbing one Rev Marshal Clarke managed to marry into the Protestant Ascendancy in the late 18th century. By doing so he founded an Anglo-Irish dynasty which would have a long and proud history of providing cannon-fodder for the British Empire. The most successful of them bought land near Tipperary and built Graiguenoe Park. In 1910 they got in trouble with the United Irish League 'anti ranch movement' which thought they should be selling more land off. As they had already sold off more than most other local landowners they decided not to and because of that they got boycotted in Thurles (luckily a Clarke had married a tinned food manufacturer who was able to send some wares over). In the event there was a court case which became somewhat famous where 8 UIL members were convicted for conspiracy and got 8 months in jail. After the war Sinn Fein took over form the UIL and began political unrest and - after the police station was dynamited - the Clarke's promptly hopped it to England. After that - like many anglo-irish houses - Graiguenoe was burned. What was left of the estate was then sold off to the tenants. Still lots of Clarke's & relatives in Ireland though - like most of the remains of the ascendancy mainly living in damp, decaying old houses which are way to big for their means. My cousin Ben lives in a large house near Kilkenny - interestingly no-ones knows where the Cesspool is. If anyone drinks the water there who hasn't lived there a while they are immediately violently ill (somehow I think the two are related). |
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Post by ignorantianescia on May 22, 2012 16:50:56 GMT
My cousin Ben lives in a large house near Kilkenny - interestingly no-ones knows where the Cesspool is. If anyone drinks the water there who hasn't lived there a while they are immediately violently ill (somehow I think the two are related). Does this mean that drinking water supplied by ground water on location and maybe partially by an unknown cesspit?  |
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Post by timoneill on May 22, 2012 20:57:27 GMT
Interesting that the subject of the Troubles should come up. I am reading a biography of John Betjeman, and came across this today: "At this date 1926, the Irish Civil War was just over. Many of the great houses owned by Anglo Irish gentry had been torched, and the landowners threatened with death. Nevill Coghill, an aesthete don at Oxford, came from the Protestant enclave of West Cork. During the Toubles, he was taken by the IRA to a tree on his estates, blindfolded, and told to prepare for death. Being a "High Church Nancy" - to use the contemporary jargon - he made the sign of the Cross. The men rushed forward, removed the bandage from his eyes, and apologised. "Sure Mr Nevill, and we never knew you were a Catholic." Just an anecdote. More trivia, but Coghill was a friend of Tolkien's and a sometime member of "the Inklings" literary/beer drinking group headed by Tolkien and Lewis. He also produced the modern English Penguin translation of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales that has been a lifeline to lazy English undergraduates for generations. |
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Post by unkleE on May 22, 2012 23:46:36 GMT
Interesting story, Humphrey, thanks for telling it. I have tended to think about the English in Ireland in binary terms - English or Irish - but I guess there may have been many families who were Anglo-Irish like yours, and were treated well or badly depending on how they were seen locally. I wonder if your ancestors identified more with the English or the Irish?
PS A water mill sounds suitably romantic from this distance, but was it??
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Post by humphreyclarke on May 23, 2012 12:26:29 GMT
Does this mean that drinking water supplied by ground water on location and maybe partially by an unknown cesspit? Very possibly - of course they insist there is nothing wrong with the drinking water and we are all a bunch of sissys for being sick every time we drink it. Interesting story, Humphrey, thanks for telling it. I have tended to think about the English in Ireland in binary terms - English or Irish Yes - it isn't that simple. For example I remind my Irish-American relatives their surname indicates that their family origin is actually 'old English', the descendants of the first wave of settlers who came over with the Normans in the 12th century and who were later dispossessed by the 'new English' because they stuck to Catholicism. but I guess there may have been many families who were Anglo-Irish like yours, and were treated well or badly depending on how they were seen locally. I wonder if your ancestors identified more with the English or the Irish? As I understand it, they were active in the Home Rule movement and considered themselves Irish not English. Their vision was of of a separate Irish identity within a United British Isles rather than as a wholly separate independence. That view was pretty much doomed from 1916 onwards. Hubert Butler en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubert_Butler was a relative of mine who was a 'minority voice' post independence (he also got in a bit of trouble for pointing out the involvement of Catholic clergy with the UstaĊĦa) |
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- Overselling me a bit there. Sadly I don't have any estates. The place in Cavendish is my folks house which is an old watermill. The place is New England is a large rental but there isn't much land with it by American standards.
